Kira Cochrane on the apparent backlash against feminism

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/01/gender.women

Good article.

Thanks for that. An interesting read with some good and bad points. Nevertheless, it's nice to see someone equating feminism with everyday issues. I think feminism taken to its extreme has tarnished the reputation of feminism that actually benefits people. E.g. Greer et. al. with their "all heterosexual sex is a violent act" bollocks...

Am never sure about the pornography / sex trade debate, as many of the arguments disappear when you consider gay porn or prostitution.

Greer never equated heterosexual sex as a violent act. You're thinking of Dworkin and she was apparently quite severely misquoted.

i think i heard some of this on 'Start Of The Week' yesterday (assuming it is tuesday today)

plus i think you're wrong nuts_and_raisins, can't say i've heard of people trafficking guys for sex, or brothels of guys, or pimps in control of guys, but yes there are guys in the sex industry

> Greer never equated heterosexual sex as a violent act

I am aware of Dworkin (all sex is rape etc.). I was referring to once hearing Germaine on Radio 4 saying something along the lines of "basically all male to female sex involves a penetration and thus is an act of violence". Whether or not this is in her books, she was saying it.

I can understand anyone wanting to distance themselves from it as it's nonsense. Where does it leave women who actually enjoy sex, or gay men who have penetrative sex for that matter?

OK, i stand corrected. It is quite clearly a nonsense statement as a blanket comment.

> can't say i've heard of people trafficking guys for sex, or brothels of guys, or pimps in control of guys, but yes there are guys in the sex industry

But those are arguments against the sex industry, not against the idea of prostitution in its own right (and properly legislated). Having said that,I am uncomfortable with prostitution - even when legalised - precisely for the reasons you describe.

By the way there are male brothels etc. it's just that there are less of them as demand is lower.

> OK, i stand corrected. It is quite clearly a nonsense statement as a blanket comment.

Agreed. And it led many women to reject feminism, even though there are still legitimate equality issues involving women in society. It's a bit like how socialism was led away from the working class by over-theoretical socialists.

I am aware of Dworkin (all sex is rape etc.)

Dworkin didn't say this. She, and Catherine MacKinnon and Robin Morgan, all made similar spoken and written statements about heterosexual relationships, romance and intercourse within a patriarchal society. MacKinnon (who most clearly associated hetero sex with rape) was one of the first people to write about the concept of a "rape culture", eg. a society where sexual consent is frequently assumed or disregarded, where huge numbers of mainstream films and TV shows include graphic rape scenes for no discernable reason, where children are aware of the mechanics of sex from a young age but are not taught the importance of genuine consent. MacKinnon directly associated all aspects of the sex industry with rape and claimed that all porn scenes and sex acts involving prostitution are by definition forced because it's only the constraints and lack of options for women in a sexist society that make women do sex work.

Robin Morgan: "rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire. . . . How many millions of times have women had sex "willingly" with men they didn't want to have sex with? . . . How many times have women wished just to sleep instead or read or watch the Late Show? . . . Most of the decently married bedrooms across America are settings for nightly rape"

This is a really important point for feminism as many people would rather believe that rape only counts as rape if it's a violent attack by a stranger in a dark alley. The point that Dworkin, Morgan and MacKinnon were trying to make is that there are many, many sexual situations that should be regarded as rape are in fact are seen as normal and acceptable.

Thanks for clarifying all that Hannah. I was hoping you might pop up on this thread.

No probs. Glad to see my ramblings appreciated ;) Thanks for posting the article Simon - it was an interesting read (though I disagree with Cochrane and the Fawcett Society's attitude to the sex industry and I find it ridiculous and irritating that a strong national organisation with as much clout and support as Fawcett spend so much time whinging about strip clubs when they could be doing something useful for women, ah, but I digress...) Faludi's Backlash is a fascinating read (if slightly dated now) for anyone remotely interested in the cycles of feminist achievement and backlash

I think i agreed with most of the article, but yes there were some bits i wasn't so sure on. It certainly helps correct the assumption i sometimes hear from other men that women are not equal and uses figures and facts to back up the argument. It's an emotional piece, but also stays fairly rational.

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^^^
"rape exists any time sexual intercourse occurs when it has not been initiated by the woman, out of her own genuine affection and desire."

I personally don't agree with this either. However I do think it's a thing that was worth saying (and at the time was a completely revolutionary statement that had a huge affect on how people thought and acted in regards to their sexual relationships.) The way I've always perceived it is that Robin Morgan was so horrified at a culture that normalises rape and coercion and expects women to "give in" to sex whenever their male partners want it, regardless of their own feelings; that she may have truly felt that the messages of female sexual passivity and male sexual dominance fed to women by patriarchy made it impossible for women to genuinely consent to a sexual 'request' from a man... or she may have just wanted to make a completely radical statement in order to shake up everyone's way of thinking. Or both. This isn't how I think or how I live (to be honest I credit women with a lot more self-awareness and self-confidence than she seems to) but I can sort of see what led her to say it.

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Hannah, I'm always intrigued by your attitude to strip/lapdancing clubs, which seems to go against what a lot of feminists (myself included) believe. Do you really not think that they are part of the problem? - that, as Cochrane puts it, "women's bodies being marketed to men" does not contribute to the rape culture that we have? Or do you just mean that efforts should be focused elsewhere as a priority?

What about male sex shows? The issue here is one of exploitation of people, regardless of their gender.

^^ if you mean the issue is about exploitation about the people directly involved, ie. on stage, I'm not sure it is. My main problem with strip and lap-dancing clubs is less the individual women who choose to work in them (although there are arguments to be had there), and more about the message the clubs potentially give about women, and about how you can treat/view women, to the men watching.

Yes, what Kirsty said. Exploitation or otherwise is a separate issue. I'm thinking about the fact that these clubs send out the signal that women are a commodity, an object to be bought (or stolen!) and used for pleasure.

Yes but's that's exactly the same with male strip clubs. I.e. this is not specifically a female issue.

No, because how many male strip clubs are there?! I don't think I've ever even seen one! It's not exactly an epidemic, is it? Not like they are in every town in the country, shouting "Here! Come and leer aggressively at our dancers - that's their purpose in life!"

To be honest, I don't know if can answer your point because I don't know how the two compare. But I do feel that most strip clubs and an awful lot of porn is directed at heterosexual men and presents women in a certain way - and it seems to have become more 'mainstream' in a way that I don't *think* you could argue male strip clubs are. To me, it adds up to a situation where some men take on a mindset where they seem to think, for example, that wolfwhistling at a woman they don't know in the street is absolutely fine and not at all threatening, and we should just like it and stop being prudes. I'm not saying that porn/strip clubs etc are the only cause of this, merely that they're part of a mainstream culture and attitude that says it's okay to view women like this. (And before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that *all* men act like this - but there are too many that do, in my experience.)

Mainstream, yes... you're putting things much better than I am today ;) I'm tired...

whoops, I was just thinking that every time I type a reply, I find you've already said what I was thinking but more succinctly!

Right, I really have work to do so I'm going to have to stop reading this thread :S

> No, because how many male strip clubs are there?!

Plenty. At least one gay pub in Cambridge has a strip night about once a week (at least when I lived there). Also here in Amsterdam there is plenty of stuff if you're that way inclined! It's also the case that the pressures women face to do with body and image are extremely strong (if not stronger) on the gay scene. As you point out, however, this is not mainstream.

What's more, there is a lot of use of the male as sex object amongst heterosexual women. The article posted above correctly identifies a taloid obsession with the female body, but ignores a similar obsession with the male body.

The only point I wanted to make is that whilst the use of women as sex objects is more prevalent, it is not specifically a female issue.

Fair enough, yes, it's not 100% a female issue, but aggressive, sexual objectification of women is far, far more widespread.

I think that the media's obsession with celebs being too fat/too skinny is another separate issue, though. Well, it's still a feminist one, but I don't think it is as relevant to the problem of sexual assault.

The only point I wanted to make is that whilst the use of women as sex objects is more prevalent, it is not specifically a female issue.

Welllll, yes and no. I don't want to state that male prostitution/lapdancing clubs/pornography is absolutely fine and unproblematic; obviously that's not the case. On the other hand, there is a widespread tendency for women to be conceived of primarily in terms of their sexual function, and the way the overwhelming majority of pornography etc. (and arguably all het pornography per se) presents women reinforces this tendency. No such phenomenon really exists for men, and so while there are plenty of arguments for male sex-work establishments etc. to be problems in themselves, they don't feed in to a larger problem in the same way.

(Actually, I think perhaps the most depressing thing about the article above - and I don't really share Cochran's note of optimism at the end - is that it's all such obvious stuff that I could pretty much have written it off the top of my head. In other words, it doesn't even scratch the surface.)

> No such phenomenon really exists for men

The chippendales? Any calendar featuring male pinups? Cosmo centrefolds? Just about any gay porn film? Sex and the city? These are some examples that spring to mind...

there is a widespread tendency for women to be conceived of primarily in terms of their sexual function,

by whom? you must know some fucked up people if this is the way they see women. Get some new friends/acquaintances if that is how they see people.

I still don't get the need to constantly say "women this", "men that".... or the need to make such ridiculously sweeping, sexist statements as the one above.

BUT....

I am not going to even attempt to enter into a rational debate on this subject on here.

Well, you've just given examples of the male sex industry. I didn't deny any such thing exists. What I said/meant was that throughout our culture, women are frequently defined primarily by their sexual (and reproductive) functions, in a way that simply is not the case for men. That is, the female sex industry is much more an extension of society as a whole than the male sex industry - and that makes a lot of difference.

The chippendales? Any calendar featuring male pinups? Cosmo centrefolds? Just about any gay porn film? Sex and the city?

Good points well made. But personally I find male strippers an' all that about as titillating as the shipping forecast. The stuff aimed at men is far sexier in my opinion. You lucky bastards!

Can anybody recommend (are there any?) good male writers taking a constructive view on gender inequality/Feminism from the male perspective?

Yes. Sweeping, sexist statements, that's it. If you'd like to expand on why a comment on how society tends to view women is inherently sexist, go head.

Can anybody recommend (are there any?) good male writers taking a constructive view on gender inequality/Feminism from the male perspective?

At a guess, I think you'd be hard pushed to find anything but I'd be very intrigued. And even if there are any good articles out there, I would wager they're fairly rapidly besmirched by those whose noses are easily put out of joint by a man DARING to have an opinion on the matter...

I found a blog: http://feministallies.blogspot.com/

Also here in Amsterdam there is plenty of stuff if you're that way inclined!

i don't think what goes on in the warmoestraadt is that typical. but i can see the argument in that most red light districts in larger cities are more than just gay friendly ;) but they allegedly have a lot of illegal trade associated with prostitution. one of the arguments for reducing the places in Amsterdam is that people trafficking still goes on, and that it is girls trafficked from eastern europe and south east asia. i'm not saying that some boys and men are not coerced into the sex industry but its far more likely a lot of girls are part of it against their will.

but i kinda disagree with..
MacKinnon directly associated all aspects of the sex industry with rape and claimed that all porn scenes and sex acts involving prostitution are by definition forced because it's only the constraints and lack of options for women in a sexist society that make women do sex work.

i have friends who worked in Soho and KX years ago, and they had degree education but preferred prositution because it payed better, they enjoyed sex (even with the associated risks) and (in my opinion) didn't find the right job, like i am a model office worker, not! :)

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> women are frequently defined primarily by their sexual (and reproductive) functions...

But to claim that female pornography necessarily implies association of women with their sexual function (which is correct), but that male pornography does not is illogical, is it not?

Again, that's not what I said. Obviously the sex industry in all its forms is about sex (in some respect at least). But what I said, if you take the fuller quote, is that "throughout our culture, women are frequently defined primarily by their sexual (and reproductive) functions, in a way that simply is not the case for men". Basically, the male sex industry is relatively isolated, whereas the female sex industry is much more part of a larger societal tendency.

> women are frequently defined primarily by their sexual (and reproductive) functions...

> > But to claim that female pornography necessarily implies association of women with their sexual function (which is correct), but that male pornography does not is illogical, is it not?

I think she's referring to broad social trends, not specific ideas or ideologies only within porn. Obviously all porn focuses on its performers sexuality. However its a tendency of patriarchal societies to associate women with "sexual and reproductive functions" on a level that men are not; much like a homophobic society associates non-hetero people purely with sex in a way in which hetero people are not. Associated. Aaargh, my grammar is fucked today.

> Basically, the male sex industry is relatively isolated

Some of the examples I gave of men as sex objects (e.g. calendars, magazine pinups for straight women, TV shows like Sex and the City) are not isolated. And these are all associating men primarily with their sexual function. One can argue that this is wrong in the same way that it is in the female case, but I think the statement that the treatment of men is somehow marginalised is not justifiable. There is too much evidence to the contrary.

I don't think you're quite grasping what I mean. Basically, see Hannah's post. I don't think male porn calendars are "marginalised" in that they're shunned by the vast majority of society or anything; I do, though, think (and in fact think it's self-evident) that they're "marginalised" in that they're... how to put it? kind of an aside, rather than symptomatic of how men are treated by society in general.

That's about as well as I can explain it without taking forever to drench up examples. If that and Hannah's post don't make it clear, then I'm not sure I can help any further.

@ Katemac, re. naked dancing establishments:

I honestly don't have as much of a problem with the sex industry as most feminists, I think. I don't get the argument that "objectification = bad, therefore strip clubs = bad because men are paying to objectify women". Objectification is something that all human beings do to each other every day. It's an intrinsic part of human sexuality and sexual attraction. I refuse to believe there is a feminist in the world who hasn't, at least once in his/her life, looked at another person walking down the street and thought, "mmm, nice {insert body part here}"... though according to many feminists, this is a BAD THING and something that men to do oppress women and everyone should feel guilty about. Which I think is complete bullshit. Thus, I don't have a problem with the idea of Persons A, B and C sitting and watching Person D remove his/her clothes and twirl around a pole -

as long as Person D has made a fully informed choice to go into that line of work.

This is the most important thing about sex work and this is what feminists should be focussing on in my opinion. Stripping is not a huge problem in this area because the number of strippers who have been trafficked or coerced is (as far as anyone can tell) pretty low. However there are vast numbers of women and children who have been forced into (sometimes) porn and (often) prostitution.

I get annoyed at the Fawcett Society because, while they're ever so fond of staging protests against Hooters and marching past Stringfellow's to shout abuse at employees and patrons alike; they don't seem to be doing anything to help trafficked women and sex slaves. They're also very fond of meaningless platitudes, taking the moral high ground and blaming female individual sex workers for the existence of a system that is almost exclusively run, funded and perpetuated by men. I just think that the issue of whether Manchester has 8 or 9 strip clubs is pretty much totally insignificant compared to the fact that Manchester undeniably has thousands of trafficked women being raped for £10 a go every night. There is no conclusive evidence (as far as I know) that strip clubs or even brothels make a street less safe for non-sex worker women or lead to a rise in sexual violence.

It is a very logical and persuasive argument that strip clubs, lad mags, adverts that use women's bodies in exploitative ways, etc; are all symptoms of a society that hates women and views our bodies as commodities. I do agree with this to an extent. I'm not going to be like "yay strip clubs and ubiquitous female nudity makes a happy land full of egalitarian sexy fun!" because, um, they don't. However, strip clubs and lad mags and exploitative adverts are not going to go away. I don't necessarily think they have to go away. I'm a shameless perv and a very bad feminist and I watch porn and I think poledancing is sexy as hell and I enjoy ogling women, so I don't think I'd really enjoy the perfect right-on Dworkinite feminist society where no one is objectified ever.

I think the important thing here is to make sure that everyone involved in sex work is doing so from a place of knowledgeable, informed choice; and to make sure that sex workers are protected from the dangers they're inevitably going to face; and to educate society as a whole to have more respect for sex workers (unlike most feminists I think it is possible for a person who respects women to go to a strip club and possibly to pay for sex, though I'm sure it's rare). MY perfect right-on feminist society is one that can include equal rights and respect for women AND allow those women who want to dance naked or fuck for cash to do so in a safe environment.

However its a tendency of patriarchal societies to associate women with "sexual and reproductive functions" on a level that men are not; much like a homophobic society associates non-hetero people purely with sex in a way in which hetero people are not. Associated. Aaargh, my grammar is fucked today.

^ somewhere like Tehran would bear this out. and that whether it was prostitution in a straight sense or gay sense the purchasers would still almost exclusively be men. however its not just overtly homophobic societies (like just about any islamic state). the link between prostitution and gay areas of major cities surely gives the impression that if you are homosexual all you think about is sex, and that only once things have passed having more than just the only gay in the village will things move on. if we are genuinely becoming a more equal society then having only these 'scene' places where its okay to be out is a bad thing. or is it?

Cosmo centrefolds?

Backtracking and playing devil's advocate slightly (as I do see your point), I don't recall seeing male centrefolds in any issue of Cosmo I've ever bought. In fact, most women's mags tend to have lots and lots and lots of pictures of other women for you to compare yourself to, and very few (if any) pictures of men. Now, to be fair, I don't exactly buy men's mags on a regular basis, but from the ones I've flicked through, it doesn't really seem as though this trend is replicated in reverse...

what does my head in is spending a day in Amann on your own is much scarier than spending a day in Amsterdam on your own (and the objectification would seem clearer in the latter)

It would be interesting to spend some time in Amsterdam actually and see whether attitudes to women differ from here. Stuff like the aforementioned wolf-whistling in the street, and being sleazed over in nightclubs. Hmm

> I don't recall seeing male centrefolds in any issue of Cosmo I've ever bought

Hehehe. I think they had their heyday in the 70s, but some recent issues have indeed brought them back (with large "return of the male centrefolds!" banners). They are only every now and then, though. Not that I am an avid reader... :-S

The fact that women's magazines are full of pictures of women however, is very interesting. It shows for one thing that the abuse of the female image in the media is not done solely by men. It's a complex and subtle issue.

Kirsty: Cosmo do naked male centrefolds on occassion.

[I rambled off on a tangent here about my mother comparing the representations of the objects of attraction in fhm/cosmo/gaymags of both flavors and then I realised I was rambling and I have work to do]

It shows for one thing that the abuse of the female image in the media is not done solely by men. It's a complex and subtle issue.

Well, this is basically fundamental to feminism. A patriarchal society - which it is so clear that ours is in so many ways - does not simply work by straightforward exploitation of women by men. Rather, women are devalued and etc. etc. in a million ways, and it affects female consciousness as well as that of men.

To take a really simple example, there are plenty of studies showing things like how if you put a female name at the top of an exam paper or CV or whatever, it will be marked down or considered less good than if it has no name or a male name. However, what these studies pretty much also always find is that this is the case regardless of who's looking at it - female examiners/employers etc. will devalue things with a female name attached just as men do, and often by just as much.

Hannah: I definitely see your point. But I just think there's a big difference between perving at someone in the street, and perving at someone in a lap dancing club who is effectively saying "I am here for your sexual pleasure... that is my sole purpose... you don't even need to think of me as a human being with thoughts and emotions and opinions". Perhaps my problem is more with the way these establishments are marketed. If the women were presented as unattainable goddesses rather than slutty sex slaves... hmmm.

I think I agree with Katemac. I also think that it is on a continuum where these kind of clubs are effectively saying "I am here for your sexual pleasure... that is my sole purpose"... etc, thus it becomes easier to devalue women further to the extent where they are trafficked for prostitution etc. I think there's a spectrum of de-sensitising, almost, where if you start off objectifying women in strip clubs etc it becomes more likely and easier that you will objectify them in much worse and more sinister ways.

By 'you' I mean 'a very small subset of people', of course, or perhaps even 'some parts of society'...

That was *really* badly put, from which you can see why I have so far been sticking to reading this thread, rather than contributing to it myself!

I'm not sure whether the "unattainable goddesses" thing would necessarily be unambiguously better, but I'm finding it hard to articulate why. There's something in there about the old virgin/whore dichotomy, and how society tends to divide people into the deserving and undeserving poor - sorry, women. Britney as a symbol of "bad" femaleness, and - I dunno, Jolie, perhaps? - as a symbol of "good"/"unattainable"...

I have no point to make with this observation - but your comments made me think of the Brass Eye "Good Aids" vs "Bad Aids" thing, Angelica.

I think it's something that's done a lot within society - good women, bad women, good black people, bad black people, good gays, bad gays. And so on...

Good heterosexual men, bad heterosexual men...

Well, not so much. The point, generally, is based on an argument that goes along the lines of "What's wrong with [x group]? Why can't they all be more like ["good" subset of x group]?"

If the women were presented as unattainable goddesses rather than slutty sex slaves... hmmm

That's a really interesting point. I'm no expert in strip club marketing techniques, but the few posters / billboards I've seen around London and Manchester did seem to me to be presenting the women (both photos and cartoon interpretations) as more goddess-y than slave-y. But maybe that's my preconceptions, as I'm able to find sexual images of women beautiful and powerful without making moral judgements (slut) or assumptions about their sexual availability (slave). Inga Muscio writes a little about ancient cultures where prostitutes were worshipped and closely associated with goddesses, and their having sex with someone viewed as a great gift that must be honoured. I really want to find out more about this, it's such an interesting idea and so different from modern patriarchal views of sex devaluing women.

ps. 1: here "I'm able to find sexual images of women beautiful and powerful without making moral judgements (slut) or assumptions about their sexual availability (slave)" - I mean the men who go to sex workers may well be making these judgements or assumptions, not Ms Mac ;)

ps. 2: Inga Muscio wrote a book called Cunt, which I can't look for on Amazon cos I'm at work, and is one of my feminist heroines. Everyone should be aware of her existence.

I don't want to get too involved in this thread (similar to James A), but I'll make one quick point. I think the complaints from men on this often come from an irked sense of judgement. I've no doubt that we have a partriachal society, and I've no doubt that we need to address it. I think most reasonable people agree with that. I'm also sure things like this are true:

"To take a really simple example, there are plenty of studies showing things like how if you put a female name at the top of an exam paper or CV or whatever, it will be marked down or considered less good than if it has no name or a male name. However, what these studies pretty much also always find is that this is the case regardless of who's looking at it".

The trouble is, I don't do that. Neither do any of the other script markers I know. I don't wolf whistle at people, and I don't treat women like sex objects. Is it not the case that there are some unreasonable people around (men and women) and we ought to tackle them?

Mwhite, I don't think you're quite understanding what I mean by the studies on exam scripts and so forth. I don't mean that people go, "Ah ha, this one's written by a woman, I'll mark it down," and none of these studies suggest that that's what's happening. It works at a much more subconscious level - the values which inform our patriarchal society are deeply embedded within everyone, such that people enact them without even necessarily being aware of it. In fact, if I recall correctly, some of the studies have reported back to their subjects, who as a rule were shocked that their judgements were affected in such a way.

So basically, no - it's not about some unreasonable men and women around, although certainly they do exist. It's about an "unreasonable" (read: completely fucked up) society, and how that affects everyone.

Is it not the case that there are some unreasonable people around (men and women) and we ought to tackle them?

Yes, and yes - but to tackle them you have to look at where their unreasonable attitudes come from. Incidentally, I certainly wasn't trying to say that this behaviour is typical of all men (or women), but I do feel it's accepted far more than it should be in society as a whole.

I want to type a very long response on why I have certain knee-jerk reactions about certain things but don't have the time as I really should be working right now :S

Re: the Cosmo centre-folds - I stand corrected. Shows how long it's been since I bought a women's mag!!

angelica- I knew you were going to say that :-)

I can accept that people have unconscious prejudices. But thats why you consciously try to address them. That's exactly what I do in day to day life. By the same token, I shouldn't believe anyone on here who says they aren't racist or who says they are an atheist, because they spent their formative years in a racist Christian country.

I don't think people would be happy to accept that though. ANd I don't think that I have a massive untapped sexism that I am unaware of either. I can see from my mark sheet how the females compare to the males- that is a quantitative measure. And I haven't ever marked females down.

Fair enough mwhite, but you're very much taking your own personal isolated example, rather than looking at the overall prejudices of society. I'm sure you're great ;-), but I'm equally sure that the general trend is otherwise, as - although I've not seen the actual research - would seem to be shown by angelica's example. Your argument is simply saying "one person does not behave this way". That's great, but doesn't prove (or dis-prove) anything in any context wider than that of "mwhite's behaviour and prejudices".

True enough Jude ... but, also ... loads of assumptions are being made here about how so-and-so 'often' or 'frequently' happens. Lap-dancing bars (with females) are being described as 'mainstream' ... but I wonder what percentage of the population has actually been to one? A very clear minority, I'd suggest.

Straw poll?

I haven't.

Yes, agreed OR, but there *are* figures for the 'exam marking' thing, so my point that they are more relevant to the discussion than mwhite's own admirable lack of prejudice still stands.

With lapdancing bars it's not just those who have been, it's the advertising, the awareness they're there, the increasing level at which they appear to have permeated the mainstream, I think. I think (no figures to back it up, mind!) that numbers have increased in recent years...

I can accept that people have unconscious prejudices. But thats why you consciously try to address them. That's exactly what I do in day to day life. By the same token, I shouldn't believe anyone on here who says they aren't racist or who says they are an atheist

I tried explaining pretty much this point of view to someone a few weeks ago and they told me that if everyone has these inherent biases (acknowledged or not) then people shouldn't be allowed to think what they want. Personally I find their opinion wrong but this is because I am aware of my faults and inherent prejudices and I work consciously everyday to ensure that they do not become something which adversely affects how I interact with people.

I haven't.

But I did once to a backpackers-type place in Kings Cross where there were female AND male strippers.

Not even on stag dos?

Jude- you've got my point exactly.

Generalisations in this context are as unhelpful as generalisations in others. That what irks me about these discussions. I didn't disagree that the general trend is for sexism, but you can't blame me for it! And you can't blame many other reasonable people either. Why are generalisations accepted so easily in male/female discussions but not in black/white discussions or muslim/christian/atheist discussions?

Maybe there's an important difference that I'm missing, in which case please let me know.

Talullah - I agree. I think you have to strive everyday to become aware of prejudices (everyone will have lots) and correct for them.

I've never been to a strip club.

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Generalisations in this context are as unhelpful as generalisations in others.

This is why facts and figures always help. However, there are general perceptions, that can and do vary greatly from person to person, gender to gender, race to race etc. Surely if a high percentage of [insert minority group or similar here] feel that they are, say, more likely to be beaten up or raped if they go out at night, even when this doesn't match the actual proveable statistics, then that still says something worrying about the status of that group?

if you're stranded at Liverpool St Station there is/was a strip bar near called The Scotsman or something like. i was enlightened enough to go in there with who i was going out with at the time and his friend but it did look a bit grim... so i didn't stay

.. and that's me for the day, I think. I always promise myself I'll just be an interested observer on these types of threads, then always end up joining in.

Must... concentrate... on... some... work... now...

Straw poll?

I have. But got drunk and flashed my breasticles because I wasn't getting any attention... Petulance!

> Not even on stag dos?

Or on hen nights?

Mwhite, I'd say the word "blame" is unhelpful. As I say, it's basically a massive societal problem which affects everyone's beliefs and prejudices, and needs attacking on a massive level. I'm not sure how your marking works - is it blind? If so it's not really relevant, as beyond analysing handwriting styles and so forth you wouldn't know who was female as you marked them - but regardless, I don't buy your "I'm not prejudiced" thing. Basically, you are. I know that sounds like a terrible accusation, but it's not: it's a way of saying that everyone is. I'm extremely feminist (that sounds trite, but I don't know how to express it) and I'm prejudiced; occasionally, I'll notice ways in which my behaviour is being drawn by wider societal -isms, and I make efforts to avoid it in the future, but no-one's perfect. The best thing that can be done is, as you say, to be as conscious of all of this as possible, and to actively interrogate your own behaviour and challenge sexism (and etc.) in the world at large as you find it.

I don't know the proportion of hen dos that end up in strip clubs compared to the proportion of stag dos that do, but I can take a crazy, wild guess that it's quite a bit higher for the stag dos. It seems to be the standard thing to do and I think it's awful.

and for more than the feminist reason.

Well, so far of people on WAN that have mentioned it:

Girls: 2/2
Boys: 0/4

But perhaps we're not very representative / people are lurking.

Or being coy....

you can put me down as a no :P

Oi, I'm not in charge here...

I'm a no too.

RIght... I'm off for the next few days.

Does anyone know of any strip bars in Hull?

Oh, and Jude, the "lapdancing clubs have increased in recent years" assertion is indeed backed up by figures - see the original article. Doubled, according to Cochrane, since 2003.

angelica- I freely admitted that I will have prejudices and that I try constantly to correct for them. My marking isn't blind- I have the students names on the work. And I mark on the basis of the quality of the work without really thinking. At the end of the year, there is no systematic bias for or against females as I'd expect (I don't have a prejudice against female students). This is repeatable- I've been doing it for 6 years.

In my view, I have relatively few gender biases. I give myself plenty of opportunity to be conscious of them which is important.

Oh, and yeah, also no. Though it's probably kinda unlikely that I'd ever go on a hen night.

Frivolous comment: mwhite - your female students are undoubtedly markedly better than your male ones. The fact that they get similar marks shows that you are unconsciously being prejudiced and marking them lower than they deserve.

safety wink

Right, I'm REALLY going now.

Though it's probably kinda unlikely that I'd ever go on a hen night.

why not?

I was wondering that, but didn't like to ask.

Well, as to what Jude said, that kind of is a possibility - statistically, women on average tend to do better, but more consistently (i.e. less 3rds and 2:2s in degrees, but also less 1sts.). But anyway, you know - yay you and all. Carry on being aware of all that you can be. Not that you're about to stop, I assume, obviously.

it's basically a massive societal problem which affects everyone's beliefs and prejudices, and needs attacking on a massive level...... I don't buy your "I'm not prejudiced" thing. Basically, you are.

Angelica.... how fucking dare you say things like this? Do you know mwhite well enough to make these judgements?
You have just accused him of being a sexist and a liar.... why don't we chuck a paedo suggestion in there too? I bet he's a racist too, huh?

(By the way i know mwhite and would be 99.99999999% certain that he is absolutely in no way any of the above)

I understand the point you are attempting to make, but this really is the most simplistic form of schoolyard politics. Can you not accept that you accusing people of these things will offend, or is that purely your intention?

If you can maintain a conversation without merely reducing it to accusations i will happily have a debate with you... if not, i'll chuck you on ignore and you can accuse me and every other man of anything you want.

for the record i have been to strip clubs/sex shows about 4 times, twice on stag do's and twice in amsterdam when dragged along by women who wanted to go and watch some fucky fucky

Is it just possible, even slightly, that I might be capable of taking a large number of sets of work and judging them on merit? ;-) You know, 'cos some of them were shit and some of them were good? And maybe it might just be possible that when I am in a supervision with some girls and some boys I might speak to them about physics regardless of what they had for tea last night, what the weather is doing and what gender they are?

Sometimes it isn't actually difficult not to be prejudiced.

Why not? Well, to start with, I'm not a big fan of marriage, and I think few of the people I'm close to really would be either. That's not "oh my god marriage is teh worst thing evar!!1", but that overall I still think it's a bit of a shitty patriarchal institution as it currently exists.

I've not got my head together fully on it, but I think the main reason I'd hate to go on a hen night is perhaps the symbolism of the night itself - the whole "one last night of freedom!" thing. I think that if your marriage is a sign of an impending lack of freedom, you should be getting out of there as soon as possible; and on the flip side of that, I think it's a bit rubbish that there's an idea of things which are acceptable right up to the point of being married...

I think the main reason I'd hate to go on a hen night is perhaps the symbolism of the night itself - the whole "one last night of freedom!" thing. I think that if your marriage is a sign of an impending lack of freedom, you should be getting out of there as soon as possible

I agree with this 100%

My hen night was fun. It was more of a low-key just going for a drink with my favourite women to my favourite pub to celebrate the fact that I was getting married soon and very happy and loved up. Definitely none of that L Plate, male stripper, last night of freedom business - embarrassing!

Would you go to a hen/stag night for a gay wedding, angelica? Supplementary question: how do you feel about gay marriage?

if any soon-to-be husband of mine had anything to do with naked or semi-naked women on his stag do, the wedding would be off... and the best man would be made fully aware of this beforehand :P

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FFS, alternation. That's why I followed it with a long explanation of exactly *why* that's not the terrible accusation that it sounds, and pointing out that I too hold such prejudices. Of course I don't think mwhite is some sexist monster or whatever - from what I can tell from here, he's vastly better in that respect than the vast majority of people. I'd use the word "sexist" to refer to someone who I thought was egregiously prejudiced against women, and from what I can tell, mwhite doesn't fit that description by a long way. That doesn't, however, mean that he's somehow completely outside of the patriarchal system, and unaffected by the sexist messages which affect literally every person in the country, any more than I am.

I feel the same about Christmas

oh my :)

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I think some people regard whether they go on a hen night or not as about what the person organising it wants i.e. there are some people that are able to put personal objections aside because it's important to their friends that they attend something. Not everyone works like this though.

And I wasn't just talking about strip clubs on hen nights - also strippograms, which seem to be more socially acceptable.

As someone who is married (10 years and counting) can I also just say - my reasons for getting married were wanting to have a big party with everyone I loved and celebrate the fact that I was with someone who I totally and utterly love, makes me happy, and I want to spend the rest of my life with. It was kind of "I want all his family and friends and my family and friends to be as happy for us as we are for each other" and also a bit "and I want to wear a pretty frock (not white, mind) and have a gorgeous party". We wanted to both make a statement that we are in it forever (as far as you can ever know this without a crystal ball), and I definitely don't regret it. It was a beautiful day, but just one day. Our relationship is what's more important.

flop pope!

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Do I agree with gay marriage? Yes and no. One of the many small reasons why I think marriage is a rubbish institution is that it is (in nearly the whole word) hetero-exclusive. It would be made marginally better by the inclusion of a same-sex option, and obviously same-sex couples should have the same options as heterosexual couples. I'd still prefer, though, an abolition of the institution as it currently stands altogether.

Works for me. Really really well.

... Oh, and my "I wouldn't go to a hen night" isn't absolutely absolute. It's just, well, doubtful.

Well, a friend of mine did have a strippogram on her hen night. I had to go and meet him outside the pub when he arrived, to pay him, and he was like "let's get this over with then... *sigh*" which did open my eyes a bit! - poor chap.

The wink's implied. Always implied.

> which did open my eyes a bit

Not to mention what you all saw next

* boom tish *

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... And sorry if it sounds like I'm impugning your relationship, Jude. If you have a great relationship, great for you. I'd just personally prefer if the one official option for relationship-recognition didn't have lots of irksome patriarchal (and, yeah, heterosexist) baggage attached.

ooer!

Anyway, her husband is a total wanker and they're getting divorced soon. Perhaps there's a link :)

my friend, of course, not Jude!!!

In fairness, Angelica you did try to explain that afterwards, i think i was just so pissed off with the accusation that i probably scan read the following bits of your response.

If anyone is interested, I received a quite lengthy comment on the article in question from an equally 'extreme feminist' whom i asked what they thought of it after explaining my thoughts.... (I thought the article had some good points but felt that the writer was way too down on men (as a sex), used the basest people for quotes (Theo Paphitis and Alan Sugar may both be successful business men but would probably both admit to being sexist and are not representative of men in any way more than that dick who spat in someones face on big brother is - i could equally write an article about all women being stupid attention-seekers and use Jade Goody and Jordan as an example but it wouldn't make it in any way true) and disagreed with a few other bits and bobs... most of which Hannah has put better than i could)
I haven't read what she has written as it is on my pc at home but as a bit of a 'respected feminist blogger' i'm sure it will be quite good.

post it here James!

S'ok angelica. I don't tend to take offence on t'internet. It's been an interesting discussion. Anyone who knows me and my other half would probably agree that the power balance in our relationship is definitely not slanted towards the patriarchal side of things... I think I'm also lucky in that my parents had (and still have) a pretty ace relationship, and my Mum is a strong, intelligent, assertive woman who's always been very much the equal in her relationship, so I've had great role models.

Hehe @ katemac.

Alternation, it's worth noting that while she included a quote from Alan Sugar, it was used as the introduction for a statistic pointing out that 68% of employers agree. That statistic was new to me, and I did find it a bit shocking. It's fairly standard journalistic practice - solid statistic plus quote for colour.

Perhaps the Theo Paphitis quote doesn't exactly prove anything, but I think it's trying to capture something which can't really be proven with statistics; that is, the quote definitely rings bells as something I've heard in various forms way too many times.

I can't wait to get married but if (which he wouldn't) Jon pulled the patriarchal card on me I'd kick him in the nuts ;o)

No "obey" in your vows then? ;)

I tend not to believe things that don't have quantitative indicators. And don't get me started on journalistic uses of statistics :-) 95% of journalists can't do statistics properly (see- I've done it myself! ;-) ).

Only him saying it to me, lol.

Sorry Jude; I'd hope that you wouldn't take offence in real life either. I'm not intending to say that there's anything wrong with your relationship, or that people who get married (with their various motivations) are automatically wrong or anything of the sort, only that I find the institution itself quite, well, problematic.

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Life's too short to take offence.

Well, it's the history, and some of the vestiges. The full extent of the history including the whole thing basically being about transferral of the ownership of a woman from one man to another, and the vestiges of that such as the "obey" part being default in marriage vows, the father giving the daughter away, and countless smaller things like that which just serve to remind the function it used to explicitly serve, and I'd argue tends to reinforce to some extent ideas of what are the "correct" places for men and women.

As to the matrilineal societies - if you were talking about the roles being completely reversed, then yes. That's probably not the case, though, so I'd have to know a substantial amount more about a particular society to give a fully informed opinion.

Personally I've always been more bothered about the religious connotations of marriage than the patriarchal ones, although I suppose they are linked in a way. I'm sure it is already possible to have a legal ceremony without any of that. But the history will always be there, I suppose.

I had a totally non-religious wedding. They don't let you even have any hymns or religious readings (not that I would have wanted to) if a Registrar marries you. This suited us down to the ground. So yes, katemac, it's totally possible.

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I went to a humanist wedding earlier this year, actually. It was lovely.

How does that differ from a non-religious registrar / state wedding, then, Kate?

irrelevant aside: the only couple I know of who had a humanist wedding - the husband murdered the wife some years later :-O

bah, Christmas is pagan anyway ;)

*awaits angry correction from GL*

One thing I saw that interested me last year was something on the Daily Politics on BBC1 where the survey showed at the high level, women had actually made it in terms of equality of pay, but the further down the payscale you go the worse the level of equality of pay. However all we tend to hear about is the glamourous cases, such as the ones quoted in the article.

>>They don't let you even have any hymns or religious readings (not that I would have wanted to) if a Registrar marries you.

We've had to choose three pieces of non religious music and even got a Ramones song in there to finish it all off.

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ah frick! I keep deleting things by accident!

From what I understand, a humanist wedding has no requirements or restrictions on the place or wording of the ceremony, but it isn't actually legally binding in this country yet (except Scotland), so you need to go to a registrar as well. This particular couple had the legal ceremony in New Zealand - nice!

how does a humanist wedding differ? i've only been to funerals

On the sex industry and objectification issue, I kind of agree with Hannah. We sexually objectify people any time we're attracted to someone we've never met. As humans, we're all sex objects and we all see other people as sex objects, that's all a part of human sexuality. Whenever we first meet someone of the sex we're attracted to, we're unconsciously sizing them up as to whether we would like to have sex with them or not. We can't really get away from our animal sexuality, but that's not to say we don't also treat everyone with respect also.

I think I agree with Katemac. I also think that it is on a continuum where these kind of clubs are effectively saying "I am here for your sexual pleasure... that is my sole purpose"... etc, thus it becomes easier to devalue women further to the extent where they are trafficked for prostitution etc.

Someone's choosing to put themselves in that position, though, and something like stripping/pole dancing is generally not done out of sheer desperation, unlike prostitution. Take sex out of the equation and it's much the same as any other job. When you go to a shop and want to pay for something, the person behind the till is effectively saying "I am here to take your money and give you change...that is my sole purpose", again it's just a role someone chooses for themselves. I don't think being a stripper devalues women any more than being a checkout operator, and the moment they step out the club, both stop being there solely to perform the job they choose to do.

It's also worth remembering that whilst perhaps pay is equal at the highest end, numbers of men and women definitely aren't.

(And that that is effected by the same forces as those in the studies I mentioned earlier - that basically, if a man and a woman have identical CVs, the man in general is perceived as more qualified.)

I went to a humanist wedding earlier this year, actually. It was lovely.

My atheist-communist gran was given a humanist funeral that was much nicer and more relevant than my religious nan's funeral - thing is though, both were the appropriate thing for the appropriate people. I don't like lots of the assumed bits that go with weddings and marriage, but I think (and have seen from my parents' and friends' examples) that it's possible to get married and do away with those bits, if what you want is just a statement to say "this is the person I've decided to spend the rest of my life with, and I'd like to celebrate that". I once went to a methodist (I think) wedding where the couple came down the aisle together, which was kinda sweet. Although they did skip a litte bit. Not so sure about the skipping.

Actually, Robadob, your comparison there could be said to be quite informative. Hands up who dreamed of being a checkout assistant when they were younger? There are, well, varying levels of coercion.

(There's some nice Marxy stuff to go here about work being viewed within capitalism as a means to reach life, rather than as part of life itself...)

But people don't attack other people and try to give them money and get some change. I don't think it's a appropriate comparison. Sex carries with it so many emotions and hormones and power struggles - you can't call it an everyday job.

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Hehehe @ the skipping :)

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oh, just reread and seen the "Take sex out of the equation" part, sorry. But I don't think you really can take it out...

From what I understand, a humanist wedding has no requirements or restrictions on the place or wording of the ceremony, but it isn't actually legally binding in this country yet (except Scotland), so you need to go to a registrar as well.

ha ha Scotland ahead of the game, shame i'm not a patriot. i'm also amused that the reply can predate the question. time huh whats it good for etc

here's what I, personally, feel, in simple terms: The widespread existence of strip/lapdancing clubs, men's magazines full of naked women in submissive, provocative poses, etc, may encourage some men to view women as purely sexual objects. Some of these small subset of men may then go on to rape women, because they've decided that's what they're there for. Whatever small number of rapes that constitutes, is too many.

But people don't attack other people and try to give them money and get some change. I don't think it's a appropriate comparison. Sex carries with it so many emotions and hormones and power struggles - you can't call it an everyday job.

People generally don't attack or sexually assault strippers and lapdancers, either, because places that host strippers and lapdancers are always full of security, and I get the impression they're fairly safe places for the strippers to be. Neither are they actually having sex with anyone they wouldn't in a one night stand situation anyway. They just turn up, do their job in a safe environment, go home, live a normal life. Much like everybody else.

Personally I don't really understand the appeal of going to strip clubs, in that I can't understand doing an activity that's essentially meant to turn you on unless you're doing it with someone who you're having sex with. I'd be somewhat uncomfortable going to a strip club with people I've no intentions of sleeping with.

Oh, Jude asked before you did Adele, I'm not psychic ;)

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oh yes, i can't keep up :)

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I thought we weren't doing [good subset] / [bad subset] of particular groups.

I didn't really understand that part of the discussion...

Nono, I wasn't suggesting that men attack women in strip clubs. Just referring to the objectification argument. Women don't get seen as till objects :S

Women don't get seen as till objects

I think we do actually. I reckon you'd be slightly surprised at a healthy intelligent 20-30 something male working in a shop or a cafe, whereas you wouldn't think twice about an identical woman in the role.

Not that I have the time for this argument...

here's what I, personally, feel, in simple terms: The widepsread existence of strip/lapdancing clubs, men's magazines full of naked women in submissive, provocative poses, etc, may encourage some men to view women as purely sexual objects. Some of these small subset of men may then go on to rape women, because they've decided that's what they're there for. Whatever small number of rapes that constitutes, is too many.

I think you give men too little credit. Rape does happen, and has always happened. In some cases it's about men who feel they're entitled to whatever they want and think little of those it affects, in others where it's pretty much removed from what we normally think of as sexuality and is more about power and generating fear. I think that would exist without images of submissive women in provocative poses. Your argument is similar to the case of violence in films, where most in society can differentiate between fantasy and real life, and those that commit rape/violent acts do so because they have deeper issues rather than because they've seen too many images of submissive women/violence. There's no inconsistency of viewing your fantasies as sex objects and see those people who choose to be seen as sex objects for their 9-5 as sex objects but seeing every single woman in your life as a human being, and it's doing men a disservice to think that them objectifying imagery and fantasy means they'll objectify real women.

Nono, I wasn't suggesting that men attack women in strip clubs. Just referring to the objectification argument. Women don't get seen as till objects :S

That's where it comes down to the fact that we all necessarily see each other as sex objects whenever we encounter anyone who we might be attracted to, though, that objectifying humans is something we all do, no matter what sex or sexuality we are. We're all constantly sizing up everyone we meet as to whether we would like to have sex with them or not, as, underneath it all, we're instinctually sexual animals.

Women (and men) get seen as till objects when they're behind the till. You get served, you're not really concerned about the person behind the till, they're just there for your utility. They're a till object. Their sole purpose is to serve you. They have lives and feelings but the people who they're serving aren't concerned with that, they're concerned with paying for their goods and exiting the shop as quickly and easily as possible. You can read into that any kind of marxist theory on capitalism objectifying people generally, and the sex trade objectifying women being just a subset of that, or some existential theory about humans viewing everything in terms of its utility to them or that people generally subsume their identity into their societal role or job, but I think the objectification of women in the softer sex trades is something that's universal for everyone.

Of course things are different when it comes to prostitution, which generally isn't done as a part of a positive, informed choice, isn't done in a safe and controlled environment and is full of exploitation.

It's been a great discussion on this thread. I've benefited a lot from it. For kirstym and others, though, here are some Cosmo male centerfolds:

http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/men/cosmopolitan-male-centrefolds-fernan...

Apologies if you didn't mean you actually wanted to see them kirstym, but I think some others might enjoy them ;-)

Going way back up the thread here, this has been playing on my mind a bit:

I refuse to believe there is a feminist in the world who hasn't, at least once in his/her life, looked at another person walking down the street and thought, "mmm, nice {insert body part here}"... though according to many feminists, this is a BAD THING and something that men to do oppress women and everyone should feel guilty about. Which I think is complete bullshit.

I think it's bullshit, too, but that's not the kind of objectification I associate with lapdancing/strip clubs/most porn. A lot of it makes me really uncomfortable, although to be honest my uncomfortableness makes me uncomfortable too, as I don't really want to dictate to other people how they should and shouldn't get their kicks. I just find it really hard to separate a lot of those establishments from wider societal assumptions about how men and women should interact.

My knee-jerk reaction is to equate the lap-dancing club down the road from me with the aggressive 'get your tits out for the lads crowd' - maybe that isn't the reality, but that's how they always seem to be sold and to me, it's an example of enforced macho culture that stereotypes men as much as it does women. When I hear of secondary school teachers having to take teenage boys aside and explain to them that girls & women aren't actually like the women portrayed in bad hip-hop videos, I despair for the kids and what they're learning about How To Be A Real Man.

I do know, really, that it's not a simple case of A causes B; I know those clubs using those formats only exist because there's a demand for it. I just find it very hard to square all my natural instincts with one another on this one :S

[edited to fix italics and to add: good grief, Nuts & Raisins, I couldn't possibly look at a naked man and objectify him, that would just be offensive! ;)]

Your argument is similar to the case of violence in films, where most in society can differentiate between fantasy and real life, and those that commit rape/violent acts do so because they have deeper issues rather than because they've seen too many images of submissive women/violence.

Ouch! I don't like this comparison at all. I'll have to think about it some more.

I just find it very difficult to shake the belief that objectification of women is sometimes linked to sexual assault. "Phwoar nice tits love, get 'em out for the lads", getting your arse grabbed in a nightclub... it's just the next step. Obviously I know that the vast majority of rape is to do with power and control rather than sexual desire, but still, if only a small percentage of it is connected to how women are portrayed by sex establishments, porn and men's mags, it's still too much.

When I hear of secondary school teachers having to take teenage boys aside and explain to them that girls & women aren't actually like the women portrayed in bad hip-hop videos, I despair for the kids and what they're learning about How To Be A Real Man.

my god, does this actually happen?? Jesus...

I thought that centrefold link was going to be Fernando Torres for a second... he'd be better off pouting in FHM ;)

What I like about those centrefolds is how many "normal" bodies they have posing. Yes there's a lot of sportsman and soapstar hotties, but Colin Murray FFS?! There's hope for us all...

Is that Edith behind him? That seems a bit wrong... stripping off with your colleague!

I so did not want to see Justin from Hollyoaks in the nud either. Urgh.

I wish I could have kept up with this thread but I was at work. My thoughts:

The part of the article that shocked me was the bit on rape conviction rates. Only 5.7% of rape cases lead to a conviction, and only 10%-20% are reported. Multiply those together and a man could rape a woman and have a less than 1% chance of getting convicted. I find it hard to believe that men contemplating commiting rape aren't vaguely aware of this -- if not of these figures, at least of the general trend. Some men sexually abuse women because they know damn well they can get away with it.

Similarly with prostitution -- I honestly don't know the figures, but I gather that the majority of prostitutes have been trafficked or otherwise coerced. If that wasn't the case -- if the only prostitutes were those who had decided to go into that work because they wanted to even though they could find work elsewhere -- then the moral problem (or at least one major moral problem) with prostitution disappears.

Regarding strip clubs and so forth, I don't think they make society unequal but they may help to keep it that way. If we had a genuinely equal society, and it included a sex industry in which both men and women presented themselves as sexual objects, then I'm not sure how I could fault that. But we don't have an equal society, and the existence of a fringe industry of male strippers doesn't change the fact that the sex industry as a whole objectifies women, any more than the existence of a minority of female executives and politicians means that the battle for workplace equality has been won. (If you hear the words 'stripper' or 'prostitute' I bet the first image that comes into your head is of a woman rather than a man.)

I think that how people see other people is influenced by context. If a man looks at porn or visits a strip club he's seeing those particular women in that context as sexual objects whose purpose is to display themselves to him for his gratification. That doesn't necessarily mean that's how he thinks of all women in every context (or even of the same women in a different context, or different women in the same context). But then again, it might influence how he sees women in other contexts, especially if he doesn't see enough women in contexts where he has to treat them as equal to men, and especially if treating women as sex objects in other contexts doesn't bring down any kind of penalty on him. (I don't think this makes it okay for him to be sexist, but I think making moral judgements doesn't preclude thinking about psychological cause and effect.)

Anyway... I probably don't know what I'm talking about and now I've lost my train of thought.

What I like about those centrefolds is how many "normal" bodies they have posing. Yes there's a lot of sportsman and soapstar hotties, but Colin Murray FFS?! There's hope for us all...

Now compare this to the lack of equivalent variety in body types among the naked women in FHM etc... logical conclusion: this "hope" doesn't exist for average women? Just a thought

No Alex Zane or David Tennant, anyway. Boo! ;)

> Now compare this to the lack of equivalent variety in body types among the naked women in FHM etc...

But I think that's also a bit of a problem in women's magazines. Do you remember that Dove advertising compaign a few years ago, which made a BIG thing about having "normal" female bodies? Suggests to me that's it's a problem across the board, but I'll happily be convined otherwise...

I like Justin from Hollyoaks :-S There's no accounting for taste I guess...

I much prefer Calvin!

I thought that Dove campaign was great. It's a shame there were snarky comments about it.

OMG I don't like him as much as this scary stalker:

http://cgi.ebay.nl/CHRIS-FOUNTAIN-JUSTIN-HOLLYOAK-CUTTINGS-CLIPPINGS-P...

Obviously I know that the vast majority of rape is to do with power and control rather than sexual desire, but still, if only a small percentage of it is connected to how women are portrayed by sex establishments, porn and men's mags, it's still too much.

I think this is a really strange dichotomy; as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the problems related to sex establishments, porn and men's mags (as they currently exist; as they could theoretically be I find a slightly more difficult area) are very much about power and control.

> I much prefer Calvin!

Indeed. Shame they don't have that sexy priest.

But I think that's also a bit of a problem in women's magazines. Do you remember that Dove advertising compaign a few years ago, which made a BIG thing about having "normal" female bodies? Suggests to me that's it's a problem across the board, but I'll happily be convined otherwise...

And I think this is a capitalism problem rather than a feminist one. It's not really in an advertiser's interest to make the person viewing the advertisement feel good about themselves, they're in the business of giving out the message of "you're a bit crap, but you'll be great if you buy this", and the only time it deviates from that is when, like in the case of Dove, it's a cynical "We're not going to make you feel inadequate in order to sell you product, we're just going to cynically exploit your awareness that you're being manipulated into buying stuff by manipulating you into buying stuff in a different way".

I think this is a really strange dichotomy; as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the problems related to sex establishments, porn and men's mags (as they currently exist; as they could theoretically be I find a slightly more difficult area) are very much about power and control.

Sex and sexuality generally has interesting connotations of power and control (not necessarily in a BDSM type way) in that, in penetrative sex at least, the man is obviously in a position of power just because of the mechanics of it, but probably because of that, in the initiation stages, it's the woman who has power and control because the onus of consent is generally on her. Sex and sexuality always involves lots of levels of power and control, so even the relatively less objectionable aspects of the sex industry is going to also reflect multiple levels of power and control. Of the person paying the wages, of the women dancing, of the punters watching, there's lots of levels of power going on there, and not all of it is disadvantageous to the dancers.

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The idea that women with pubic hair is considered a fetish in porn isn't exactly a step forward, either

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Maybe we shouldn't complain about a lack of "normal" shaped women, and complain about a lack of variety in body shapes portrayed instead.

ArghargharghARGHMAKEITSTOP!

... Sorry, that's not to do with anything anyone's said. Well, it is, but not in the sense that it's about anyone, it's just thought associations leading to inevitable despair about how completely messed up the world is.

Who are the women that we are happy to see working in strip clubs/ lap dance clubs /”massage” parlours? Are they your mum, your sister, your girlfriend? Should we want these jobs normalised? The problem is that they are becoming so normal and so acceptable that the Job Centre is advertising them, so the next logical step is that a woman could have her benefits stopped for refusing to take one of these jobs on.

Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that lap dancing /pole dancing etc is just a job in a safe environment. They are far from it. The working practices are highly exploitative and the women are often pressured to do more than they are comfortable with (just a little favour to the bosses mate – he’ll make it worth your while)

The porn industry (& I include the above mentioned clubs in this description) tells lies about women. They feed the illusion that women are sexually available to all men and exist to service them. Now of course I know that not all men believe this. But the horrendous statistics domestic abuse in this country shows that there are a hell of a lot of men out there who do believe that they have certain rights to be in control of their women.

Hannah McStar – I am a great admirer of much that you have to say. I loved “Cunt” and enjoy lending it out far & wide, but I am uneasy with the chapter on the goddess worshipped prostitutes. It is too far removed from the reality of how women’s sexuality is viewed in society and it is not helpful at this time. I know you don’t like Object but I think they do decent work along with agencies such as the Lilith Project & the Poppy Project. This report from the Lilith Project seeks to re-establish the links between acts of violence against women, and to show how the current policy of normalizing lapdancing and striptease develops the illusion of sexual availability, actively damages women and reinforces gender inequality.

http://www.object.org.uk/downloads/Inappropriate_Behaviour.pdf

Hmm. At the beginning of that report Eden asserts that lapdancing --> more rape, citing her first report. Looking at the first report, though... well, I think it's fair to say that no credible academic journal would accept the evidence presented therein (for example, drawing the above conclusion from the facts that Camden has more strip clubs than Westminster and also higher rape rates). I'm sympathetic to the idea that such establishments do tend to breed unhealthy attitudes to women (particularly in the sickeningly misogynistic and exploitative way they're currently run), but I really would like to see some research from someone who actually knows what they're talking about when it comes to statistics (and, preferably, doesn't consider Julie Bindel a reputable source).

Fair point - having read it through properly myself, it is not as rich in content as I had first thought. I know I have come across a more useful report but can't find it at the moment. I will post it when I find it.

However, the statistic that 50-80% of women working in lap dancing clubs are from Eastern European countries with no formal documentation interests me. Shame it is not backed up with a proper source. This has striking similarities to prostitution in Amsterdam. Prostitution was legalised to "protect" women and they were encouraged to register. However, only 5% of prostitutes have registered and it is estimated that the vast majority of unregistered women are non-Dutch nationals who are likely to be trafficked women. The people making money from women, know that the more vulnerable she is, the less rights she will access and the more money they will make.

I think it's fair to say that no credible academic journal would accept the evidence presented therein (for example, drawing the above conclusion from the facts that Camden has more strip clubs than Westminster and also higher rape rates

Yeah, I've just read both reports as well, and they're both full of misleading statements, badly-used statistics and tendencies to treat correlation as causation. I'd be very interested to read a much more detailed report, preferably conducted by an independent and unbiased (or, as unbiased as possible) group.

and, preferably, doesn't consider Julie Bindel a reputable source

Hehe. I really dislike Julie Bindel. 90% of everything she's ever written can essentially be summed up with the phrase "I don't understand any women who don't see the world in exactly the way I see it, and thus those women are wrong / self-deceptive / tools of the patriarchy. Also, transpeople are the source of all evil."

julie bindel comes across much better in real life than on paper. I never thought much of her mainly due to her daft opinions on vegetarianism. But i saw her speak at a conference & she came across well & was very entertaining.

P s plea to the WAN god - please can we have a "go to the end of thread" button at the begining of each thread. These long threads are so tedious to browse on a mobile phone.

* Lilith Project *

Named after a Mesopotamian storm demon who also in the Church of Satan incorporates Lilith in her kabbalistic Zohar role as the wife of Samael?

saying that she turns up all over the place including in wiccan circles.

my god, does this actually happen?? Jesus...

Sadly, that was a real anecdote from a teacher I sort of know :(

I think that's also a bit of a problem in women's magazines. Do you remember that Dove advertising compaign a few years ago, which made a BIG thing about having "normal" female bodies? Suggests to me that's it's a problem across the board

Yup, I would totally agree! Doesn't stop it being a feminist issue just because women are involved in perpetrating it, though, I think.

I think that's also a bit of a problem in women's magazines. Do you remember that Dove advertising compaign a few years ago, which made a BIG thing about having "normal" female bodies? Suggests to me that's it's a problem across the board

Yeah it's two sides of the same coin really.

Naked women pictures in men's magazines say: "this is what a beautiful woman looks like, this is the standard of beauty a woman must reach in order to be hot enough to go in our magazine. Men - this is the sort of woman you must find attractive."

Naked women / fashion pictures in women's magazines say: "this is what a beautiful woman looks like, this is the standard of beauty a woman must reach in order to be hot enough to go in our magazine and be considered attractive by men and other women. Women - this is the sort of woman you must strive to be."

The loans seem to be essential for guys, which are willing to start their organization. In fact, it is easy to get a short term loan.

all your spam bot bases are belong to us...

I am starting to like the bot. Nice to see these classic threads again..:-)

the bot is brenda/arm rest/nail clinic

I am starting to like the bot. Nice to see these classic threads again..:-)

Yeah, I agree. The seeming lack of any logic or common subject means it's a lucky dip.

Is laughing at women laughing alone with salad part of the anti-feminist backlash or not?

Joanna Lumley was on something the other day, graham norton? and she was discussing her modelling days and having to be amused by fruit in photos :D

^And 60`s knitwear modelling whilst bowling ;-]