SAY NO TO TESCOS ON MILL ROAD

http://ourcampaign.org.uk/millroadtesco

Tesco are intending to open a new store on Mill Road, at the site of the old Wilco store.
A Tesco on Mill Road could have a terrible effect on the diverse range of shops on Mill Road - and many other local residents are worried about this too. A website petition has been set up, posters are being distributed and check out website for possible public meeting.

This seems appropriate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfSi0D7KESk

Flipping NIMBYs - not everyone can afford to shop at Limoncello's, dahling.

I thought that these plans had been shelved?

And I still don't really see that a Tesco a few doors down from the Co-op is really going to have an adverse effect on anything but the Co-op.

Bang on, Mac. Yer Al-Amins, greengrocers, etc will be fine, as people choose these specialist shops over yer Londises and Co-Ops already. Yer Londises and Co-Ops won't be.

It does seem like it's a symbolic objection to Tesco rather than a practical objection to a small chain supermarket. Which strikes me as cardiganista snobbery.

Still, boo and shucks etcetera.

Is there actually anything that could be done to stop Tesco, in any case? Unless they would need planning permission for change of use, or something, I can't see what grounds the council would have for preventing Tesco taking over the shop.

However, as someone who loves the Co-op on Mill Road I'll be gutted if Tesco forces it to close.

I thought that these plans had been shelved?

If Tescos were shelving plans, I bet they'd do it at the busiest time on Saturday, blocking the aisles.

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It used to be, but it's improved quite considerably recently. Much quicker on the tills, and even the stock seems to be better.

Let's not forget that Tescos and online shopping are taking over the High Street and forcing many local retailers and independents out....closure of Fopp, Choices, etc. Tescos don't just sell food! While it is great to have low cost shopping at what cost to other retailers?

taking over the High Street and forcing many local retailers and independents out....closure of Fopp, Choices, etc.

I hate it when people take statements like this out of context. Fopp went bust because of a horrendous bean counting disaster i.e. taking on a failed company because they *thought* they didn't have to take on their debt as well.

Market forces will always prevail, people get the leaders they deserve, people also get the shops they deserve.

Oooh no, evil nasty capitalism! Get a grip! Tesco are merely servicing a demand - people don't have to shop there, but they do because it's cheap and convenient. Maybe we should ban all those who earn over 30K a year from shopping at Tesco and make them go to the smaller, more expensive shops so that the poor little darlings don't get put out of business?

Or we could stop Tesco opening shops and force people with low incomes to spend more on anchovy-stuffed olives? They're simply divine!

I love fresh anchovies... but olives can fuck right off.

Is there anywher ein this city you cna get anchovies which are "fresh" and aren't in a jar saltier than the semen of a salty sea dog?

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Tesco wont listen, they are the new empire

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Is there a fishmonger in Cambridge? I know there is one on the market but opportuity to get there in rare.

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This is true, my dad makes special trips and the cat goes mental.

Yes...is there? I've tried internet searches and there's supposedly one on Milton Road but I've never spotted it

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Tesco are moving into the old Burger King, as well as the Mill Road site. Or so I heard. They've opened one of Chesterton High St as well. The security men collecting the takings were robbed within a couple of weeks of it opening.

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the thing about tesco's i dislike is the disrespect shown to other retail outlets .tesco's don't give a flying fuck about mill rd and it will defo have a bad impact for a lot of shops .i for one am dead against them coming to mill road .

Me too. Fuck em.

I used to shop at Tesco Express in Nottingham and it had a pretty good range of stuff - it just didn't have all the extra crap (clothes, etc.) that the massive Tescos have.

It's not like Mill Road desperately needs a Tesco, but on the other hand, how long has that building been empty? The last few times I've been over that way it's looked as though a few things are closing up. I know everyone loves Mill Road because it has so many independent shops and so on, but if nobody else is going to swoop in and use the building for something better, I'd rather have a Tesco than an empty shop.

*sigh* I miss Mill Road sometimes.

*sends brainwashy signals to kirstym in an attempt to make her and the SB move back to Romsey*

Hehe. If you can send brainwashy signals to letting agents and get them to drop their rental prices, we'll do it :)

hope it kills off that awful co-op down mill road with its slow moving queues and poor serivce

I feel inexplicably sad when I see people going round that Co-op with a trolley, doing their full weekly shop.

I think that the problem with this plan to open on the Wilco site is that they won't need a full planning application to do so. It's just change of use from one retail premise to another and I don't think it needs full council approval - maybe someone with more knowledge of planning law can confirm that?

McDonalds tried to do that on Coldhams Lane, the old garage by the Beehive roundabout already had a licence for selling food so it was easy for a large chain to walk in and take over the site, thus avoiding endless planning applications. I believe it also meant that the council didn't have to notify the neighbours so our road and those around us never found out (or it maybe that the council 'forgot', I'm not sure, it was a while ago). My limited experience of campaigning against a big food chain is to shame them with a public demo, preferably outside the intended premises and try to get a development control forum at the council. And move very fast. This site might be useful.
http://www.tescopoly.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=708...

I have no gripe with Tesco - it fills a need in the market but with a store in Milton and one on Newmarket Road, and the end of my road (Coldhams Lane and Newmarket Road) a mecca for unimaginative retail, do we really need another? You can shop just as cheaply on a limited budget using corner shops and the market. I manage to get a weekly shop for two of us using the market and a mix of londis and spa for under £40. Sometimes you just need a bit of imagination and time, and it's that weakness that supermarkets play on.

Anyone who lives on or off mill road will know the unique mix of independent traders that make it special. Even small tesco stores offer a wide range of services e.g. dry cleaning, pharmacy, photos, houseware etc. It's not just the co-op that will suffer. For a short term gain the character of mill road will be lost. Make no mistake this will be the thin end of the wedge. As shops close expect KFC, McDonalds, Pizza Hut to move in. Perhaps some people want Cutlacks turned into a Starbucks. Once we start down this road there is no going back.

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This is true and ive never been in there. Someone did point out once that they were franchises and the franchisees (?) were just trying to make a living. Weve also got a Subway but why people would want to buy their rubbish when you can have so much better on mill road I dont understand.

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i've just discovered mill-road.com and can i say.... it's so useful!!! Especially for opening times, since I'm no longer a mill road resident and have to plan my trips to all the various shops that I want to go to there.

and please note: even though I no longer live near mill road, I do still specifically go to the shops that I think are worth it (Al-Amin, Cho-Mee, Limoncello, Kailash to name but a few). I would do so regardless of there being a tesco there or not. But perhaps people who share my view are not numerous enough..... dunno...

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Interesting you describe Mill Road as run down. To some extent it has become overshadowed the swanky new town centre. I really fear that rents in the town centre will push out all smaller shops and we will end up with the generic town centre with all the obligatory shops. The council it should be said are not helping. When a friend phoned the council to ask what was down mill road they were told that there were no shops - not worth bothering with. Not sure what can be done if anything. Seems to be services rather than goods and that will continue - especially after tesco comes.

ZAMMO SAYS

hehe, i love kailash! especially for those big plastic storage bins and all that kind of random kitchen stuff you can't find anywhere else.
(well, at argos, i suppose but for twice the price at least)

Does anyone remember the bakery (now Arena music)? imo Co-op put it out of business with their instore bakery with which they have subsequently dispensed. Not much money to be made from bread, I guess? But the baker lost his livelyhood.
I think a Tesco on Mill Road is more about hitting the profits of Co-op and Sainsbury and raising brand awareness than serving the community. Pity Wilco went :-(

I love Cutlacks... reminds me of being a kid. I need some new fireplace items for the oncoming #Winter so a trip there is in order v.soon. In fact I am on a Mill road jaunt next Friday as I need top pick up supplies from the Chinese Supermarket. Is there just the one down there now? There were two... one was almost opposite the White Swan, I can't recall seeing it there last time I was down Mill Road.

As someone who lives just off mill road, i would welcome a tesco. The speciality shops are great but are never open when i need them (about 7pm on my home from work) so i have to make do with the co-op, which is atrocious.
Mill road is a very densely populated area and a fair number of people don't drive so can't do weekly shopping runs to supermarkets 2 miles away.
Those who shop regularly in the speciality shops are unlikely to switch to Tesco, it will only really be the co-op that is hit and given the choice between the 2, i'd take tesco anyday for giving me more choice than the scraggly bit of meat left on the shelf that has gone brown, or another frozen pizza.

There's a group on Facebook
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5958441803

and a meeting apparently
Thursday 27th Sept 7 pm Libra Aries bookshop (9 The Broadway, Mill Road)

For those that don't like chains, Threshers will soon be closing. Or is it just tescos and burger chains that provoke such ire?

I still haven't figured out when I'm shopping at a chain and when I'm not, but if it has a possessive I assume a small businessman is cashing in somewhere. Accordingly, I do all of my shopping at Sainsbury's and Chuck E. Cheese's.

If i was in charge of tesco, i'd open up a load of boutiquey 'cutesy', 'charming' stores that sold exotic jam and foreign sausages etc in areas like this and just not tell anyone that they were not in fact cutesy charming independent stores by foreign people who say hello and need to feed their families but actually cogs in the tesco machine.

Would make a killing, plus it'd be funny to wind up all the bourgeois types who get their knickers in a twist about this sort of thing as they hand over their cash and scurry home to show grace, georgina and harry how 'roots' they are cause they don't shop at tesco.

Joshua youve really let your middle class hating hang ups loose havent you? This is about the community of mill road - some of whom are middle class and many of whom are working class people who have been on mill road for years. I really dont understand the "look at all these middle class people getting upset" argument. My objection is not about snobbery - its about preserving a community.

Well said Archois.

What pisses me off is how many supermarkets does Cambridge need? Round where I live, I can go to Tesco, Asda or Sainsbury's within 2 minutes which really makes me question the wisdom of the planning department, although I suspsect the attitude was to shove them all at the crap end of town and nevermind that people that live here might want to see the area improve. Don't forget that there's already an M & S at the railway station.

I'm sorry but Tesco and Asda especially seem to generate a lot of bored chavs outside the doors who seem to be berefit of brain cells or inhabit a land where every word is preceeded by fuck. Inside it's like something from the Stepford Wives.

I'm far from middle class, my salary and my husband's pension don't allow us to be but we still shop on Mill Road and the market because it's better for the air miles, supports the local economy and is far more pleasurable than contributing to the corporate Tesco monstrosity. They use S106 monies as bribery and continally use underhand methods to buy land and build another duplicate, faceless supermarket hell.

I passed the Vinery stores the other day and wondered how long that has to survive. Hell, Tesco ought to take that over and kill of any freedom shoppers have altogether.

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Maybe they've all come to Newmarket Road for a holiday.

Smithy - With respect, you don't live on Mill Road though, i am genuinely envious that you have so many supermarkets on your doorstep. Being a pedestrian living just off mill road, at 7pm tonight i would have the option of (inside a 10 minute walk) the co-op (appalling, never any food on the shelves and most of what is there is nigh on rotten), M&S at the train station which is expensive and has an extremely limited range and Londis/Spar (both tiny corner shops with v limited ranges again). Otherwise i am looking at an hours trip to Sainsburys just to get a meal for the evening.

I don't think we can really blame Tesco for the chavs hanging around, I'm sure they would get rid of them if they could as it adversely affects their image. I'm not naive enough to think that Tesco are some great saviours or even nice business people, but i do think that we need more supermarkets around the mill road area. The area is constantly having new flats built, whilst landlords try to cram 30 people into a 2 up 2 down... the population is rising.

The fact that the co-op's shelves are nearly always empty, goes to prove that either the demand is seriously outstripping supply, or the shop is run so badly that it deserves to go.

I used to live on Mill Road and think that, for once, we might have to beg to differ James ;)

I agree that it's not easy to manage without supermarkets. I work full time and fell into the convenience sell but decided about 6-7 months ago to stop using supermarkets unless I had to, since I hardly felt I could complain about them when I went inside them and spend upwards of £60 a week. My problem with them apart from what I've stated is the traffic - at weekends we really are prisoners in Silverwood Close, you cannot move for cars here, and the light pollution from Asda is awful, apart from other concerns on a bigger scale. It really is unpleasant and ugly. I admit it's not just the supermarkets but also the other stores here that contribute to this. I'd love to move but can't afford to so tolerate it as best as I can.

In trying to shop locally I can't say I've found the transition easy. I have to transport the food home by motorbike or push bike but this means I buy economically and at least one a month or do a big cook and freeze a lot of meals. I also use a slow cooker so this avoids me having to get instant meals. I'm lucky though, I love cooking. My bloke doesn't and can't so if it was left to him then yes, supermarkets would be a lifesaver.

I have genuinely saved a lot of money mostly because I am terrible at wandering down aisles thinking I'll get that DVD or I might have that tin of whatever 'cos it's on 2 for 1 and end up not using it. The upside is that I can use the balance of my savings to get milk delivered (from a dairy run by my old school mate), have a takeaway and in making the rather painful effort I am actually more organised than I was before.

And yes, Co-op is appalling! Let's hope they take this as a kick up the arse and sort themselves out.

I agree. I use the Co-op on hills road for odds & ends quite regularly and it's a shabby dump.
I'm not a fan of Tescoisation but the model is based around the customer - providing what people want, when they want it, at reasonable cost; which is something the Co-op tried to do years ago and failed. Personally, give me M&S any day (or is that too bourgeois?)

What about a small Waitrose as a compromise between the two?

The worst one was the Living/Co-op on the Beehive estate. It was so morbid but it sold everything from dodgy veg to tacky shoes and naff ladies fashion.

no

So near so Spar

I think in recent times the Mill Road Co-op's been fine. It seems to have got a lot better, as I agree it used to be bloody awful. I can now *usually* find what I want when I go in there, and the queues don't take so mind-numbingly long to clear as they used to.

I have just heard that there is a demo outside the old Wilco Store today (Saturday) at 12 midday

fucking tescos

Call me a pessimist but unfortunately no amount of protest will stop Tescos opening a shop on Mill Road. The facts are these:
1. The city council doesn't want Tescos on Mill Road anymore than you or me but they can't stop them taking other an empty retail unit because this isn't change of use.
2. The city council's planning dept has to abide by legal red tape implemented by central government so unfortunately 'we don't want Tescos' isn't a valid arguement.
3. There will be increased traffic, noise pollution, and yet another big fuck off lorry blocking the road but Co-op do exactly the same
4. Kids/chavs/winos/ hanging around outside isn't a valid argument neither cos I've seen this outside both Co-op and Londis.
5. Tescos is a partly consumer-led, partly greedy corporate monster which I'm afraid we, the consumer, must accept some of the blame for.
You all hate me now don't you? :)

Wait - "hatred of the middle classes" is immediately picked up upon, but hatred of the working classes is just fine and dandy? Even the Daily Mail acknowledges that "chav" is hatespeech.

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Oatcakes as in Staffordshire oatcakes!?! Oh pretty please...

Aldi do fantastic houmous, plus their range of pastas and pestos rock!

Residents of the Mill Road Area were posted a leaflet from the Liberal Demons saying that there is nothing the council can do to stop the Tesco....

Did someone mention Staffordshire oatcakes?? Oh boy, spent a lot of time in Ashbourne area as a kid... my grandma always made a fried breakfast with oatcakes...

Any other "oatcakes" have been nothing liker the Staffs ones... stacked up on the counter of the butcher's shop... wow, memory lane just got a re-charge there1

TESCO

Groceries
Alcohol
Pharmacy
Books
CDs
DVDs
DVD Rental
Games
Music downloads
Internet
Home phone
Mobile Phones
Flowers
Travel Services
Photo Centre
Gas & Electricity
Contact Lenses
Legal store
Credit cards
Loans
Mortgages
Savings
Car Insurance
Home Insurance
Life Insurance
Pet Insurance
Travel Insurance
Cafe
Clothing
Electronics
Toys
Fuel
Home Deliveries
Software

Some quick maths from wikipedia...

21.5% of UK population have a Tesco Clubcard account.

1.05% of the landmass of the UK is owned by Tesco, this is just the stores, they also own a much criticised 'land bank' of potential sites they may or may not develop.

1.05% of the landmass of the UK is owned by Tesco, this is just the stores,

Sorry - thats crap...

the land area of the uk is 241 590 sq km.

They own 2 581 310 sq m of land, which equates to 2.5 sq km thats 0.001 % of the uk's land mass..

I was thinking they must have some huge stores the size of villages dotted around the UK... I've been to some big Tesco's but not THAT big!

However, the bit about them owning a whole load of sites is true. They do indeed buy sites with no intention of putting stores on them, just to stop others from putting stores there..

This often gets picked up on though and is dealt with by planning laws..

Man, they'll have their own football team soon... Tesco City... play in blue and white stripes... buy themselves straight into the Premiership... football is becoming such a joke that town/cities are no longer important... corporate teams are the way forward to the end.

andyt - what's the point of that list? It's not all owned by Tesco. The cafe's aren't owned by Tesco at all, and a lot of the other stuff on there is branding agreements. Yes, it's crappy but your list is misleading.

Or do we assume you hate Sainsbury's for having a banking agreement and M&S for punting car insurance?

hey everybody the thing on saturday was ok onot many of us turned up but we were able to get a lot of signatures on the petiton . The vast majority of people walking past signed up .It was quite funny ,lots of people were in a rush so i just said "anti-tesco" and most then stopped and sighned .One lady pointed something out to me though that eh made sesnse .She simply said "well who else is going to fill a shop that size" .totally correct it is fucking massive .far too big for a local retailer whatever .
So what could it be used for .any ideas
wysing arts ?

Strip joint - thats what mill road needs...

Eeek - bad double post...

so a serious answer would have to be that wysing would be great there...

They own 2 581 310 sq m of land, which equates to 2.5 sq km thats 0.001 % of the uk's land mass..

Way-hey, egg and face :-D

The list... Just started to list the 'services' tesco offer, kinda freaked me a bit, so I thought I'd share it.

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Just out of interest, who is a 'say no to tescos' petition aimed at? As has already been mentioned the council are completetly powerless to do anything, and I'm not sure that Tescos, upon being presented with a few scrappy sheets of paper filled with names, are going to decide the power of local opinion is against them and shelve all plans.

Tescos have been known to stop plans if there is enough local protest - problem is that it only tends to happen when there is a huge outcry - and sadly I think that the small portion of people who kick up a fuss about the mill road site won't be enough...

Tesco's sell Pistachio iced cream and big bags of frozen cockles... I don't gonna care if they got shares in Chelsea, I cannot get that shit elsewhere is this town so I use Tesco's.

Let's all sit at work on our Mac or PC, car is parked out front, cigarettes in our coat pockets, looking forward to a beer tonight... must text my friends via Orange... maybe I'll stay in and watch SKY...let's go fuck the corporate world eh?

I don't like 'em, I don't use them if I can help it... but a Tesco's down Mill road is hardly going to destroy the Bohemian vibe of the area... I think a nice big MacDonald's next to the White Swan would be a good thing...

Mill road needs a Next store I reckon.

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I shop for 2 and that's a mission and a half , let alone if I had kids to think about

Kids love shopping, as long as you don't take them to Tesco.

Rhythm Jr loves Sainsbury's but hates Tesco - no rational explanation!

Thinking about it, if you need a reason to despise Tesco, how about this scumbag - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Porter

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Tesco still retains a bit of that "pile it high, sell it cheap" mayhem from its early days - Sainsbury is a little more serene - sort of !

And I like the bloke who works behind the Fish counter at sainsbury's - He knows lots about fish and gives discounts :D

Two previous contributors to this debate listed items stocked by Tesco. If you walk along Mill Road and have a good look at the shops you'll find most of these articles either for sale, or in the case of DVD's, for rent. Tesco's do a very detailed study of existing shops before they open a new store, this is not to enable them to fill gaps, but to help them obliterate the opposition. The alternative to the shops we have now will be Tescos, a betting shop or two, some boarded up shop fronts and more takeaways. People come from outside the area to shop on Mill Road, they use the cafes while they're here. If they stop coming them many of the cafes may see a drop in business. OK so Tescos will mean more jobs, in the short term. Local businesses closing will not only lead to unemployment for many, but real hardship as many are family owned and run. Both Mr Duck and I are retired. When we worked we didn't earn a great deal. But we both make a point of supporting local shops because we want to live in a vibrant area that isn't just like everywhere else.
Just one thing, the Co-op isn't that bad. I've never seen any rotten food on the shelves, and the stock is much more varied than it used to be. I suspect the Co-op haters haven't shopped there for a while. As for those of you who do a once a week big shop, there's always Asda or Sainsbury, both with in cycling distance. Oh and in answer to an earlier question...Asda have a very good fresh fish counter. As for all you people out there who think Mili Road needs a Tesco, when was the last time any of you actually walked down Mill Road and had a really good look in all the shops? Maybe you should, before it all goes.
Duckie

We live in debit/credit card times. People want to put all of their "eggs" into one basket and pay for it in one easy go. Convenience is the word... not Grease.

I personally love going shopping in small stores, pondering down high streets in and out of stores, paying with cash, I like the banter, the human touch via communication. It is something quite special.

But today who can really be bothered? We have home delivery services from supermarkets because people can't be assed to go to a store. Microwaved meals delivered to your kitchen ... it's so convenient.

I'd rather walk around, get a sweat on, have a few aches from heavy assorted bags. Have no idea of what I have spent or what change I have on me... that's shopping. Filling a cart with T-shirts, tampons, tea and Tiger bread and rattling out to the hatchy to fill it up and then drive home in traffic is no fun. But at 9pm on a Tuesday evening... where else you going to go?

Give me convenience or give me death. now convenience is too much like hard work. Does the grim reaper do a home visit service? I cannot be bothered to go out and die... if you can't bring it to me then take it away.

While I cannot put it as well (or bizzarly) as ababoonsass - they seem to express my problems. At the weekend I will nearly always wander down mill road to buy what I need, and enjoy getting what is normaly nicer food from the grocers and butchers, and then the wonderful service and goods of al-amin.

The problem is that I don't have the time for that during the week. I need to go somewhere at 9pm which has everything in one place so I can then go home and see the missus! Even if I did have the time then most of the mill road shops would be shut then anyway. I would happily defend coop if I thought it could be defended, pretty much everytime I have gone in there to get something, be it a cut of lamb or something as simple as single cream I have had to go to sainsburys/asda instead. Maybe thats my bad luck, but it obviously results in me stopping bothering going there anymore....

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The "mini" Mill Road is Mitcham's Corner... it has a chemist, baker, two cycle shops, Cafe, Chinese Retaurant, Off licence, Bookies, Cobblers, jewellers, Newsagents, outdoor store, launderette, Curry house, Chinese takeaway, pubs, greengrocers, Co-op, Sex shop... and if you include across the road you have sandwich shops, kebab shops, pizzeria, another chinese restaurant and Indian takeaway, party shop... Wednesdays there is/was a fresh fish van outside the pub. I never take that for granted, but one day someone like Tesco is going to buy out the Staples store in the middle of the island and turn that into a late night supermarket/off licence/bakery, lottery ticket agent etc.

How cool would that be? A big Tescos "AS" Mitcham's corner. It would be cool for convenience but bad news for local independent businesses.

For supermarket type stuff I try and use the Spar shop on Chesterton Road as the staff/manager are friendly, they have good stock and it's clean. I hate using the Co-op. It's just not a good experience and that feeling as you turn into the last aisle (where the alcohol is)... and BANG! End of a 20 man queue being served by two tards who look like they've been let out of the half-way house at half-time. I don't mean to be nasty...

Asda have a very good fresh fish counter

Did you not watch the documentary on how Asda and Tesco (specifically but I suspect applies to other large chains too) deal with their supposedly 'fresh' deli produce? It made me want to be sick and I will NEVER use a deli counter in a supermarket of any size ever again!

Don't worry - staples will never sell up. When I worked there (which was, admittedly, about 10 years ago) it was the most profittable store they owned in the UK. It's tiny and cheap to run but the Uni students love it. It makes shit loads.

Oddly, when I worked there they were talking about buying Office World, but it took them 8 years to actually get around to it...

The only bit that's making a profit now is the copy centre. Since they opened the Newmarket Road branch they've made fuck all at the Chesterton Road one.

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Pah, i remember when it was Building Scene. Youngster.

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*gets walking stick*

Building Scene - hah, you young whippersnapper. I remember it being a car showroom for Rolls Royces. Apparently (don't know if it's true) Pink Floyd had some photos done on the roof for an album or something.

I can't recall what is was before Building Scene... ther eused to be a DIY place Hatters the last house/building on the left on Milton Road... it's a photostudio now I believe. I can remember when the back of the Portland was MFI and when the units are open you can still see the concrete ramp to the first floor... I heard that land, once destined to be flats and including the demolition of the Portland, is now hankering to be given the green light for a drive-through MacDonalds...

Not really, but wouldn't be at all surprised.

It were all fields when I were a lad.

Fields? you had fields? we only had rock...

I remember my mum and dad taking me to Building Scene to get paint when I was ickle, then making me walk home so they could use my pushchair to carry the paint tins.

*aggrieved*

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When I say fields - obviously I mean fields of molten lava.

@ angelica. I agree, wholeheartedly. I fucking hate the way that chav has found it's way into common vocab. Trust the English to leap on it. It's a lazy, easy, hate based stereotype. Much like 'toff'. Such bollocks. And, I have to add, I am most likely guilty of using both these words at times- hate myself for it though.

It's a lazy, easy, hate based stereotype.

I know you shouldn't judge someone individually based on a stereotype but quite often they exist for a reason. There were a lot of posh bastards where I went to uni and they were the most unpolite social group I've ever come across. I subconciously started making snap judgements and didn't hold the door open for someone who I didn't think would actually acknowledge my existance.

Chavs have their own trait of resorting to violence - verbal or physical - far too easily. Point in case, yesterday I saw the definition of a chav mother walking on a pavement 10ft ahead of her small daughter. Cyclist is on the pavement going the other way alongside a busy road and slows down for them and the woman points and says, "You should be on the road." Fair enough. "This is a cycle path too." he shouts back. Bit close to call as it wasn't totally clear cut who was right due to poor road/pavement markings. Up to this point the shouted exchanges had a grounding in disinterested fact though. That was until the mother responded with "Fuck you ya...! etc."

Like I said, rightly or wrongly there's a reason why stereotypes exist and why people dislike social interactions with certain groups. I don't think there's anything particularly hateful with it as long as you give people the benefit of the doubt if possible.

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N*****s have their own trait of resorting to violence - verbal or physical - far too easily. Point in case, yesterday I saw the definition of a N***** mother walking on a pavement 10ft ahead of her small daughter. Cyclist is on the pavement going the other way alongside a busy road and slows down for them and the woman points and says, "You should be on the road." Fair enough. "This is a cycle path too." he shouts back. Bit close to call as it wasn't totally clear cut who was right due to poor road/pavement markings. Up to this point the shouted exchanges had a grounding in disinterested fact though. That was until the mother responded with "Fuck you ya...! etc."

Like I said, rightly or wrongly there's a reason why stereotypes exist and why people dislike social interactions with certain groups. I don't think there's anything particularly hateful with it as long as you give people the benefit of the doubt if possible.

Really, not necessary.

good point well made :)

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angelica - how you define the type of social groups I was talking about - the ones for whom all sorts of stereotypes exist - have nothing to do with race. Are you honestly telling me that you can't look at someone and from their mere demeanor work out a hell of a lot about them? As I said, it's important to be open minded enough to discard any prejudices you may have about someone but I'd hate to go through life being so PC I daren't gauge anything about them.

I hate chavs but love niggers... is that the word you couldn't bear to type out? It's a fucking horrific term and I hate it... but if you use it, then use it... don't hide it like it makes you look so sensitive to it's hateful meaning.

I don't care who, what or where people are from... but Chavs is not a racist term...little fucknuts can be white/black/Asian... Middle, Working, No class... we're talking about Chavs as in horrible little shits who just seem to have no purpose other than to fuck with people, make a nuisance of themselves and be anti-social... it's not a question of class, colour or creed... it's a question of intelligence and respect for others.

I'm glad at least you and Thandor get it.

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good point well made :)

Changing one stereotype to another, much less socially acceptable one, and in the process changing a real (if somewhat pointless) anecdote into a complete fabrication that never occurred, in an attempt to make people feel that the first stereotype should be just as unacceptable as the second?

Nonexistent point awfully made, IMHO.

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I thought it was a good point well made (and still do) as I believe that giving people labels based on stereotypes and assumptions is a bad thing regardless of if the stereotype is based on class, race, religion, creed etc.

It's like the whole 'Ginger' argument. Substitute ginger for the N word or Jew or whatever and it, obviously, becomes wholly unacceptable. The fact is that folk with ginger hair have not been persecuted in the same way, so the argument becomes somewhat redundant. It's an interesting argument though, have the 'working classes' been persecuted in the same way, in this country, as certain other groups simply for being working class? e.g 'Im middle class, I hate you because your poor, im going to stab you with this beer bottle' I would argue no, generally not. Have the working class often formed the core membership of groups such as the BNP? Yes, often. That's why I think the whole, 'substitute this word for that' argument doesn't hold up. Words are too important and too damn different in meaning, obviously.

Edit for my usual terrible grammer.

It all adds up to treating people as things which no matter HOW you look at it, is wrong.

So if I refer to a group of people as "chavs" or "niggers", I'm "treating them as things".

What if I refer to "Germans", or "women", or "people from Cambridge"?

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THE MIGHTY THANDOR HATH SPOKEN WORDS OF WISDOM.

Did I say you personally? no I didn't I believe I used a generalisation so please don't take offense. As it happens, yes I do believe that using words which hold negative stereotypes to refer to people is treating them as things but that is just my opinion.

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and "Jazzbo the coon" is not a racist slur. My friend,let's call him Jazz, dyes his hair blonde then has dark lowlights. Racoon hair... so I refer to him as Jazzbo the coon... plus he is not black, brown, red, green... he's a snowflake, as white as a Hollywood smile.

when a 13 year old is stood outside tesco smoking and shouting abuse at someone they're a chav, that's a fact.

That makes them an obnoxious little moron with no social skills.

Agreed^

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when a 13 year old is stood outside a shop shouting abuse it makes me want Loitering to become an even bigger criminal offence each time.

:)

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tesco ftw

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I don't know if this helps the debate at all, but I find it quite useful to refer to anyone who isn't me, or my mates, or my family, or someone else who I have personally deemed to be acceptable to me on the grounds of their personality, tastes and opinions (so that covers you lot) - as 'filthy degenerate sub-human vermin'. Just a light throw-away term, I know, but it helps me get things into perspective, which makes me a jollier and more positive person, able to spread love, tolerance and good will.

Well, if we start with this:

It all adds up to treating people as things which no matter HOW you look at it, is wrong.

and then consider this:

yes I do believe that using words which hold negative stereotypes to refer to people is treating them as things

Then surely it's wrong to say this:

That makes them an obnoxious little moron with no social skills.

Logical, no?

But then you weren't thinking logically, were you?

I'm sure Jimmy Pursey used the term "chav" on the talking part of "Hersham Boys" (1979)

Talking about little upstart wuffians with the East End charm...

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I don't care who, what or where people are from... but Chavs is not a racist term...little fucknuts can be white/black/Asian... Middle, Working, No class... we're talking about Chavs as in horrible little shits who just seem to have no purpose other than to fuck with people, make a nuisance of themselves and be anti-social... it's not a question of class, colour or creed... it's a question of intelligence and respect for others.

YES

What a nice thread to come back off holiday to :)

For extra credit, ask Dawkins to quantify his offence at being called a cantankerous old fucknugget.

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I am always called a miserable old bastard... a whinger, a cunt (frequently), a gnarly old bear of beligerance... a social depressor, a deflater of fun...

You don't see me moaning about it...

I didn't actually mean to poke a hornet's nest on this one I just don't like using words with negative connotations to define people, I hate it when people do it to me ('ginger minger' was a firm fave for a long time) so I try not to do it to anyone else.

Unless they're an obnoxious little moron with no social skills, in which case it's OK.

Ginger chavs are the worst...

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Tesco or ginger chavs?

Wrongfellow - I have no idea who the hell you are but obviously you have taken agin me for some reason which I know not.

ABA - well obviously :D

I dunno about you lot but when someone says mill road I think either -

-A trip to the locomotive on a Saturday afternoon to see an illegal Premiership match
-A selection of curry houses
-Carlos (The saviour of take aways after some nights out ive had. I know an old workmate who stole a painting from a pub. Then used it as payment in Carlos for his food hahaha)
-The fact that maybe one day I might get to see one of these prositutes that people keep banging ( no pun ) on about
-Watching folk take in and out of Cash converters Stolen goods

Im afraid Tesco opening up a potential street store will never fit the bill

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Some of my best friends have ginger beards.

I have nothing in the world against ginger haired people... Newton Faulker, Mick Hucknall and Gordon Strachan woild be evil no matter their hair colour. They give gingees a bad name.

Wrongfellow - I have no idea who the hell you are but obviously you have taken agin me for some reason which I know not.

Talullah, my dear, from your spewings on this thread it's readily apparent to me that you're one of these people who reacts emotionally, rather than thinking logically.

This puts you smack bang in the middle of one of the few groups of people for whom I harbour a particularly profound dislike.

Stroud Green Road in Finsbury Park has a much larger Tesco Metro than the one mooted for mill road and that doesn't seem to have had an adverse affect on the multitude of small sole trader outlets there. There is anything and everything you could imagine available including at least as diverse stuff as mill road has.

i really don't get the argument that people who travel from all over cambridge to shop on mill road are suddenly going to stop because there is a tesco metro there.... that is plain ludicrous.

I agree James and I notice no-one seems to have addressed your earlier point about none of the independent shops being open in the evening!

I don't have a problem with the Co-op but if the Tesco is better than I will use it...

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Mill Road is for morons and Chesterton Road is for champions... fuck y'all.

and Victoria Road's for Vikings, Hills Road is for hippos and Queens Road is for... err...

Arbury is for ar... god, I don't know.

Quails?

Chesterton Road is for "(got any) Change?"

Victoria road is for victims... and vagabonds... and vagrants.

Wrongfellow - I have no idea who the hell you are but obviously you have taken agin me for some reason which I know not.

Talullah, my dear, from your spewings on this thread it's readily apparent to me that you're one of these people who reacts emotionally, rather than thinking logically.

This puts you smack bang in the middle of one of the few groups of people for whom I harbour a particularly profound dislike.

Oh dear that's a shame.

Oh dear that's a shame.

Except it isn't, really, is it? Live and let live, and all that.

Go on, have the last word, you know you want to.

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ALL PRAZE THE MIGHTY THANDOR!

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Oi Thandor. Give us a snog ya big jessie.

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here bluffy bluffy bluff . . .

Cup of tea anyone?

*tickles thandor*

Not if you still haven't got any PG...

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O GREAT AND MERCIFUL THANDOR THOU HAST SHOWN US THE LIGHT!

WE SHALL TALK ON THIS THREAD IN HONOUR OF THY MIGHTY BATTELAXE!

SUCH IS THE GRATENESS OF THANDOR!

*dances round thandor singing about hotsteppas and murderers*

*dons a viking hat for the singing of opera*

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Talullah, my dear, from your spewings on this thread it's readily apparent to me that you're one of these people who reacts emotionally, rather than thinking logically.

This puts you smack bang in the middle of one of the few groups of people for whom I harbour a particularly profound dislike.

Wow. I think that's the bitchiest and most patronising comment I've seen on WAN yet. I'm almost impressed...

Its a bit cowardly - i mean i bet wrongfellow wouldnt say such a thing to someones face.

Honesty is the best policy, or so they say; but when you're dealing with people face to face you always have the worry that what you say might invoke a dangerous emotional reaction in place of the desired thought-out one.

I can and do explain to people's faces what I find disagreeable about them, but only when I know them well enough to be sure that they'll take it rationally, rather than reacting like the enraged apes that so many people seem to be, beneath the surface.

Here on the net, the idiots don't have that option, and those of us who prefer to be able to speak our minds and discuss the things we find obnoxious can open up and engage in discussion without having to mince our words for the sake of those who let their thoughts play second fiddle to their feelings.

So much more civilised, don't you think?

You think I react with emotion rather than logic - that's fine and your opinion but I would rather have passion behind and backing my opinions than being cold and calculated which seems to be the opposite that you are suggesting.

I think your a wally.

I would rather have passion behind and backing my opinions

If your "passion" leads you to denounce something as wrong (10:39am, 10:43am) and then hypocritically commit the very same offence only half an hour later (11:16am) then maybe you're allowing it to get in front of your opinions?

I think your a wally.

MISPEELINGS ARE TO BE POSTED IN ALL CAPS ONLY IN HONOUR OF THE GRATE AND MERSIFUL THANDOR.

No I don't think so, I think that's being human. I don't like using labels but I will use descriptions if they fit and I differentiate between the two.

Let's face it, the word 'chav' has become so over-used and vague that who's to say if it's offensive or not?

It's a catch all word. Like "PC-brigade". There seems to be no cut and dried definition of exactly what it stands for (or is at least used in the wrong context often enough to confuse it's meaning) but does succeed in conveying the general feeling that was often implied by it's use.

Yes, it's based very much on stereotypes because like it not, stereotypes exist because they're often, if not right, certainly closer to the truth than many would like to think.

I think Wrongfellow is a Cyberman.

Can we give him back his soul and see if his head explodes?

Please? :)

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who else from WAN was at last nights meeting

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I do so enjoy the interesting tangents on this thread, but I am troubled.

Perhaps someone should direct the aptly named "Wrongfellow" to a support group, or Camdocs? Possibly this is his support group, but if so he would appear to be defecating on his own doorstep by engaging in personal attacks.

Please excuse me, I'm feeling terribly, terribly emotional and must run away and sob.

We tried Abel & Cole and weren't impressed. I know that one of the prices of getting fresh veggies etc in season is that they don't last as long as the stuff bought vacuum packed in the supermarkets but in the box that we got we had 3 onions and 2 of them were going off (as in squishy through several layers) when we got them, same with the carrots and potatos. On the other hand the mushrooms & apples were yummy!
I'd recommend using COFCo. (www.cofco.co.uk) if you want a home delivered organic veggie box, similar in price/quantity and seem to be better quality than Abel & Cole.

Edited for grammar/spelling

Briliant Wrongfellow/Heartsease ftw

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Thandor should read tallulahs thread .

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Same-Burys

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rebuilding beat up towns? evil tesco bastards, it would be much better to let these places continue to deteriorate.... at least tehy wouldn't have a tesco nearby then!

and yes, i am most definitely in the employment of tesco, they are paying me £100 per word to argue my point

they are paying me £100 per word to argue my point

Cor, sounds great, where do I sign up for that? :)

I was just gonna ask that :D

Tesco are now turning to property and rebuilding beat-up towns - with a bloody great Tesco at the heart of it...the big get bigger - the laisser faire sooner or later get a big shite on their step.

Sounds like Bar Hill ;-)

Cor, sounds great, where do I sign up for that? :)

http://www.tescos-are-fine-for-the-weekly-shop-but-i-don't-want-them-r...

funny what you come across when surfing ;-)

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Tesco (and lest we forget the other supermarkets) are not just convenient, they can be cheap too. As such, surely they're quite a benifit to those on a budget.
Or doesn't the "demographic mix" include those on a low income?

I don't think that the "9-5'ers without a car" need to "drag their exhausted bods there and back before it gets too dark", i am one of the 9-5ers (infact closer to 10-7 most days) and i don't drive, i spend 6 months a year going home in the dark and tend not to drag my body anywhere much.
Forgive me if i work long hours and choose not to drive. Maybe i should instead go and live in one of the towns we'll stop people redeveloping, on the dole, whilst polluting the place even more with my car. Progressive.

here is a simple idea.... if you don't want tesco on mill road, don't use it, meanwhile let the people who live in the area and would like a more convenient way to shop make their own decision.

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"meanwhile let the people who live in the area and would like a more convenient way to shop make their own decision."

You can't let people make their own decisions! They might make the one's that you don't want!

Whatever next!?
;-) :-)

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well you're right next to Asda, so you don't need it!

in all honesty i would guess that for every person for tesco, there is one against and about 20 who don't give a shit either way.

c'est la vie

:-)

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the grounds for rejecting the application are pretty strong

Maybe I'm being a bit dense, but what application are we talking about here? It's not like they're building anything - the shop is already there - and, as has already been pointed out, they don't need to apply for a change of use since it was already a retail unit before. I'm not sure the council is in a position to reject or approve anything.

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200 people at the meeting, from what I hear.

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OK. So no Tesco but what would go there in its place? - I was thinking may be a hairdressers? Perhaps with a cafe and a late night fast food outlet combined! - Mill road residents are the best fed and coiffured in the whole of the city, no wonder people want to live there!

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Oh-kay. I think the lesson here for me is that when you know saying something is inevitably going to spawn much more of the eye-bleeding bigotry that you're objecting to in the first place, it's probably best to say nothing at all. That said, since I've started, I should probaly reply. So:

thandor gets this all the time. people call him a "viking" just because he comes from scandanavia in a longboat, carries a battleaxe and pillages the coastal villages of east anglia. thandor finds that people make snap judgements about him based on his appearance and is sick of this outdated hatespeak.

This, and assorted subsequent comments saying essentially the same: this is, basically, a rubbish analogy. Because a) it's very rarely actually people metaphorically "pillaging villages" - it's people who are invariably from a particular social class, who commit the great sins of wearing hoodies and branded sportswear and have the audacity to not have exactly the same values as quasi-liberal middle class people, and b) even if they were "pillaging villages" - e.g. the aforementioned hypothetical 13-year-old-kid shouting obscenities at people - this fact is immediately tied to their class. So if the 13-year-old question is an upper class private schoolkid, they're just an obnoxious cretin, while if they're working class, they're a "chav". So the working class kid is obnoxious because they're working class, while the upper class kid is obnoxious because that's just the way they are.

It's an interesting argument though, have the 'working classes' been persecuted in the same way, in this country, as certain other groups simply for being working class? e.g 'Im middle class, I hate you because your poor, im going to stab you with this beer bottle' I would argue no, generally not. Have the working class often formed the core membership of groups such as the BNP? Yes, often.

Persecuted with outright violence? Possibly, possibly not. Persecuted in other ways? Surely you'd have to be utterly oblivious to everything to argue otherwise? I'm not in this to argue that the persecution of one persecuted group is less bad or worse than the persecution of any other, but working class people bear the brunt of a vastly disproportionate amount of reactionary social policy and rhetoric and have been consistently mocked and looked down upon for pretty much forever.

As to forming the core membership of the BNP? Well, no, actually: the largest voting bloc for the BNP is the lower-middle to middle class.

So if I refer to a group of people as "chavs" or "n*****s", I'm "treating them as things".

What if I refer to "Germans", or "women", or "people from Cambridge"?

(And yes, I will asterisk that word, because it actively hurts to look at it.) Perhaps you could look at the difference between those words? Which ones are descriptive, and which ones are pretty much only ever used in a pejorative sense? Why would people react badly if you're referring to them by a well-known racist slur, and can you see why the same might apply if you're using a classist slur?

Similarly: Unless they're an obnoxious little moron with no social skills, in which case it's OK.

Is it not pretty obvious where the difference is here? In one case you're describing one person's actions, in the other you're effectively saying, "Oh, you're an obnoxious little moron with no social skills, and so is everyone who shares some superficial features with you."

Really, if you're going to repeatedly attack someone's logic, I'd suggest that it helps to not use arguments which are made entirely of logical flaws.

In an ideal world it'd be a great space for a community centre. Services & support for immigrants like sitree suggests; a cheap cafe, a library, a little creche/playroom for kids, a room for evening classes for adults... all staffed by local volunteers... It could include a drop-in for homeless people with food & clothes to give away... Sadly the fucking selfish uppermiddleclass nimbys of Mill Rd/St Barnabas Rd already forced the council to shut down the (only? certainly one of the very few...) place(s) in Cambridge a homeless person could get a free hot meal and some company; so I don't see my dreams coming to anything. :(

Oh, and to the few people who complained, "Oh but it's not a racial stereotype!"? Well, it actually kind of is - the etymology appears to come from a word for "Gypsy", and many of the stereotypes are pretty much the same as those employed against Gypsies. However, that's not actually the point - it seems a bit bizarre to suggest that a stereotype has to be a racial one to be offensive. If you were to refer to women as "slags" and gay people as "faggots", I'd suggest that you might come up against a few objections...

I thought that the gypsy related suggetion concerning the words origins was that it was derived from the word chavi meaning child in Romani.

In which case, unless the gypsy community considers the word "child" to be an insult, then I can't see where ir could be described as a racial slur. I'm sure there are plenty of insults out there that have thier origin based in the language or cultures of other nations but their introduction into the english slang wouldn't automatically classify their use as racially motivated.

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I was simply attempting to highlight the fact that because an offensive word is foreign in origin, it doesn't necessarily follow that it's meaning is racially insulting to it native culture.

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As I've mentioned before, I think the word chav has become so overused and as a result, it's meaning so vague and confused that it's impossible to say whether it's insulting or not.
Is it related to clothing? Is it related to income/class? To behaviour? To IQ?
I could probably go on. Tho point is this, it's obviously more than just whether your wearing a hoodie or whether you buy your bling from Lizzy Dukes - It's not a fashion statement, it's a state of mind.
You've got people on one hand who are happy to wave their Burberry scarves aloft and adopt the title as their own and on the other, those sensitive souls who see it as some sort of linguistic device employed to further subjugate the huddled masses.

I guess we should count ourselves lucky to live in a society that considers such a trifling matter to be so worthy of concern and discussion.

Butterflies? Pah! Boring!

I'm only interested in an animal if it's adorably cute, can kill or eat me or possesses character. Character goes a long way.

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Tescos is exactly what we need on Mill Road! The Coop is the most depressing experience on the planet: shabby, overpriced, poor service and food you wouldn't want to give your dog. Even the staff look ashamed to be in the place. It needs the shock of competition.

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I see that a hairdressers is opening in the old Blockbusters. I got a 25% discount thingy through my door

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Right, i had a look down mill road today and i hope the anti chain campaigners are going after the following:

Mace
Threshers
Co-Op
Londis
Spar (if it's still there?)
Subway
Pizza Hut
Chicken Cottage
Every pub tied to a brewery (pretty much most of them)
Lloyds TSB (banks are well known for not exactly being ethical investors either)

Seems to me the battle against chainstores on Mill Road was lost years ago. Or are they acceptable chains?

Oh and if it's about staff pay and conditions, why not check what people are getting in takeaways and small shops down there?

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from mill-road.com:

Protest Against Tesco on Mill Road
If you wish to protest against the Tesco store in Mill Road, turn up at Wilco in the Broadway in Romsey at 3.00. Someone from Cambridge Evening News will be there to take a photograph. Please pass the message on!

I hate to be a stickler but (in case the webmaster of mill-road.com is on WAN) if you want people to turn up to a protest, it generally helps to inform them when it's happening.

I mean, of course, 3.00 on which day?

"They have a very good ethical record( and some good eco stuff) - if you dont think that matters - you tosser!

I'm curious. If Co-op have got their shit together in such a way, then why aren't they swamped under a deluge of eager customers, or at least getting far more noticable support from the public whom they serve?

Are you suggesting that the general public think it unimportant that Co-op have a good ethical/ecological "stuff"? In which case, is your above comment in fact branding the general public, by extension, as "tossers"?

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Mr & Mrs Jo public get accused of being tossers - certainly not the first time that’s happened, probably won’t be the last.